2000 Mits Montero Sport w/235K -- New Cats
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Post by ES_97Sport on Oct 21, 2014 13:50:05 GMT -5
Well I picked up my rig today and spent $1,600 bucks! whew. Drove it about two miles and BAM check engine light turned on. Was upset so I drove back to the mechanic and had them pull the code. They THINK, its a faulty thermostat that they just replaced. I just want to pass SMOG! Ouch! Sorry to hear that. That's interesting. I quit using anything but the factory thermostats years ago on my Sports. I've had problems before getting ones that work right - open/close when they should - and last for any appreciable amount of time on my 'Bird. I run a 195/200 in that. (Its a Pontiac engine - yet one more thing Pontiac was ahead of their time on back then). I've had a couple I swear came out of the package stuck open or stuck closed and one that wouldn't open all the way. I haven't bought one that didn't come from the dealership in 10 years so I imagine now that all that comes from China, things have only gotten worse. Anyway, I went through three or four in about that number of years on my big Sport. They just didn't last. Since I switched back to the factory thermostat I haven't had to replace one since. They're 'expensive' (like $20), but this is one part where you REALLY get what you pay for. In my experience, the older the model year Sport, the more finicky the ECM/PCM. They programming expects stuff to work within certain parameters and if it doesn't you end up with unpredictable behavior. Like random codes/CEL. I know you guys won't want to hear this, but this is another part that IMHO you should NOT be buying from AutoZone, etc. Edward
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Post by bdmontero on Oct 21, 2014 16:11:59 GMT -5
I got a crazy temperature guage still. It will go up and go down. Pissing me off.lol
Sent from my SM-N900V using proboards
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Post by chrisho on Oct 21, 2014 20:37:48 GMT -5
Well I picked up my rig today and spent $1,600 bucks! whew. Drove it about two miles and BAM check engine light turned on. Was upset so I drove back to the mechanic and had them pull the code. They THINK, its a faulty thermostat that they just replaced. I just want to pass SMOG! Ouch! Sorry to hear that. That's interesting. I quit using anything but the factory thermostats years ago on my Sports. I've had problems before getting ones that work right - open/close when they should - and last for any appreciable amount of time on my 'Bird. I run a 195/200 in that. (Its a Pontiac engine - yet one more thing Pontiac was ahead of their time on back then). I've had a couple I swear came out of the package stuck open or stuck closed and one that wouldn't open all the way. I haven't bought one that didn't come from the dealership in 10 years so I imagine now that all that comes from China, things have only gotten worse. Anyway, I went through three or four in about that number of years on my big Sport. They just didn't last. Since I switched back to the factory thermostat I haven't had to replace one since. They're 'expensive' (like $20), but this is one part where you REALLY get what you pay for. In my experience, the older the model year Sport, the more finicky the ECM/PCM. They programming expects stuff to work within certain parameters and if it doesn't you end up with unpredictable behavior. Like random codes/CEL. I know you guys won't want to hear this, but this is another part that IMHO you should NOT be buying from AutoZone, etc. Edward Hi Edward, I would suspect that my repair facility used an aftermarket thermostat. The Mitsubishi dealership is about an hour away. I have yet to hear anything from them today so I suspect they have ordered one from the dealership. Maybe these Montero Sports are tough to work on? I am thinking about calling the repair place tomorrow and tell them what you've said about aftermarket thermostats. Edward, Can I give you the shops phone # so you can call them & tell em' what to do!? HA! I will owe you a few 12-packs of beer. Thanks for your help!
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Post by ES_97Sport on Oct 22, 2014 12:43:27 GMT -5
... I would suspect that my repair facility used an aftermarket thermostat. The Mitsubishi dealership is about an hour away. I have yet to hear anything from them today so I suspect they have ordered one from the dealership. Maybe these Montero Sports are tough to work on? I am thinking about calling the repair place tomorrow and tell them what you've said about aftermarket thermostats. Edward, Can I give you the shops phone # so you can call them & tell em' what to do!? HA! I will owe you a few 12-packs of beer. Thanks for your help! Almost certainly they did. Very, very few shops here AFAIKT over the years actually get their parts from the dealership if they can get them somewhere else cheaper. No, they're not hard to work on. The problem is there aren't that many so there isn't a big pool of knowledgeable mechanics and like all makes and models, you have to know how to work on them. You can't work on Chevys for 20 years and just expect to be able to work on Hondas. Everything has its idiosyncrasies. I've worked on GM and Chrysler stuff for two decades and I STILL wouldn't presume I could just jump into working on Fords. Just how it is. They probably know. Its not a big secret. I could come up with a dozen people easy that have had the same or similar problems with cheap thermostats over the years. Its usually not as apparent or as big a problem on non-computer controlled vehicles. (Unless you're racing and trying to control your temps very closely.) One of the big problems I've had with non-factory thermostats is overheating them. Never had this problem with factory ones. Two in my big Sport quit working right after I accidentally overheated the engine - started popping codes and when I replace the thermostat everything was back to normal. Never had that problem since I put in a factory thermostat. On my 'Bird, overheating the engine is a guaranteed thermostat replacement. No worries. Glad to help! LOL!!! Good God, no! I got my own problems here. Looks like I'll have to train a new shop since the dealership I've been working with forever was sold last month. Edward
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Post by ES_97Sport on Oct 22, 2014 12:44:20 GMT -5
I got a crazy temperature guage still. It will go up and go down. Pissing me off.lol Sent from my SM-N900V using proboards BD, did you ever check that against the ECM/PCM readings? Edward
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Post by bdmontero on Oct 22, 2014 15:14:21 GMT -5
No I need to. Been pretty busy here lately. College and work suck right now.lol
Sent from my SM-N900V using proboards
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Post by jkdv8 on Oct 22, 2014 19:57:38 GMT -5
Air pockets possibly.
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Post by chrisho on Oct 22, 2014 21:12:58 GMT -5
... I would suspect that my repair facility used an aftermarket thermostat. The Mitsubishi dealership is about an hour away. I have yet to hear anything from them today so I suspect they have ordered one from the dealership. Maybe these Montero Sports are tough to work on? I am thinking about calling the repair place tomorrow and tell them what you've said about aftermarket thermostats. Edward, Can I give you the shops phone # so you can call them & tell em' what to do!? HA! I will owe you a few 12-packs of beer. Thanks for your help! Almost certainly they did. Very, very few shops here AFAIKT over the years actually get their parts from the dealership if they can get them somewhere else cheaper. No, they're not hard to work on. The problem is there aren't that many so there isn't a big pool of knowledgeable mechanics and like all makes and models, you have to know how to work on them. You can't work on Chevys for 20 years and just expect to be able to work on Hondas. Everything has its idiosyncrasies. I've worked on GM and Chrysler stuff for two decades and I STILL wouldn't presume I could just jump into working on Fords. Just how it is. They probably know. Its not a big secret. I could come up with a dozen people easy that have had the same or similar problems with cheap thermostats over the years. Its usually not as apparent or as big a problem on non-computer controlled vehicles. (Unless you're racing and trying to control your temps very closely.) One of the big problems I've had with non-factory thermostats is overheating them. Never had this problem with factory ones. Two in my big Sport quit working right after I accidentally overheated the engine - started popping codes and when I replace the thermostat everything was back to normal. Never had that problem since I put in a factory thermostat. On my 'Bird, overheating the engine is a guaranteed thermostat replacement. No worries. Glad to help! LOL!!! Good God, no! I got my own problems here. Looks like I'll have to train a new shop since the dealership I've been working with forever was sold last month. Edward Well I picked up my rig today and so far so good! no check engine light. Tech notes state: "O.E. recommendation thermostat opening up at 185 degrees, but will appear to be too cool and causing too long of a warm up time which triggers code. Will be installing thermostat rated for 195 degrees and re-testing." I will be crossing my fingers and taking it for SMOG tomorrow. Wish me luck! Thanks for your help. Too bad about the dealership closing. I'm sure you will find the right place. Was it a Mitsubishi dealership?
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Post by ES_97Sport on Oct 23, 2014 13:53:20 GMT -5
... Well I picked up my rig today and so far so good! no check engine light. Tech notes state: "O.E. recommendation thermostat opening up at 185 degrees, but will appear to be too cool and causing too long of a warm up time which triggers code. Will be installing thermostat rated for 195 degrees and re-testing." I will be crossing my fingers and taking it for SMOG tomorrow. Wish me luck! Thanks for your help. Too bad about the dealership closing. I'm sure you will find the right place. Was it a Mitsubishi dealership? Good luck! No worries! Fraglesnag'n skicknsnach gaglesnak! And THIS is the ongoing BS problem with Mitsubishi. ARG!!! At least his assumption is right. Tell him to get the FSMs if he's going to keep working on Mitsu's. Directly from the FSMs - July 1998->on Engine 6G72/4 3.0/3.5L (88°C/190°F) Thermostat valve opening temperature F: 190.4° ± 3.6° Full-opening temperature F: 212° 1997->June 1998 Engine 6G72 3.0L (82°C/180°F) Thermostat valve opening temperature F: 180° ± 2.7° Full-opening temperature F: 203° (BTW, I don't think there even IS a '97-'98 thermostat anymore - PN has been superseded by the '98-on PN. Back in the day, my '97s didn't run right with the spec'd thermostat so I switched to the '98-on years ago and never had another problem. Got the stupid temp OBD code randomly - techs told me to use the '98-on thermostat.) Non-Mistu generic mechanics don't even have FSM for what they're working on most of the time and the on-line/CD generic stuff is wrong the other half. THIS is why customers think Mitsu's are 'finicky'. The wrong stuff is spec'd and installed and then 'weird problems' show up. Sorry for the rant, I shouldn't be surprised - been dealing with this for years and years. THIS is why I go to the dealership. Some thermostat tech - a hotter running engine (to a point) will result in cleaner (better) emissions. God only knows what your 195 starts opening at and is at full open at, but presuming that it STARTS opening at 195, you should be ok. If its at full open AT 195, the engine is going to be running too cold - still. This is inexact but you don't have to pull the thermostat to do it this way. I would suggest hooking up an OBD scanner that does real time readings and look at the ECT. Pop the hood, and start the engine when its cold and let it warm up. While its warming up, feel the top radiator hose about 4-6" from the engine. (be careful, it gets HOT fast) When you start feeling hot antifreeze flowing that's roughly the temperature when the thermostat starts opening. Should be about 195 +/- a couple degrees. If the radiator hose is too hot to touch by the time the scanner reads 195 +/- a couple degrees, then full open is @ 195 and that's bad. Opening too soon will cause a rich condition. This will increase emissions and decrease your fuel mileage and decrease the life span of your CATs. Eventually, you'll almost certainly get a spurious code. If you live in an area with actual winter, you can kiss your cab heat good bye, too, in the winter. Yes, its the Mitsu dealership I've used since I got my first Sport in Jan of '98. They've been around for 30 years and had the same techs most of the time. Guys that have worked on this stuff since the beginning of the '90s. Back when our Sports were still pickups. Edward
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Post by ES_97Sport on Oct 23, 2014 13:56:21 GMT -5
Been there, done that, got the tee-shirt. But, not in this case. 185? Good God. :rolleyes: Edward
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Post by ES_97Sport on Oct 23, 2014 13:58:36 GMT -5
No I need to. Been pretty busy here lately. College and work suck right now.lol Sent from my SM-N900V using proboards Yea, know that feeling. Business partner is in Canada right now opening up a new site. Sigh. Give me a shout when you do. I'm experimenting with this on my '97s right now. I THINK I have an idea of maybe what's happening. Maybe. Edward
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Post by chrisho on Oct 23, 2014 23:18:58 GMT -5
... Well I picked up my rig today and so far so good! no check engine light. Tech notes state: "O.E. recommendation thermostat opening up at 185 degrees, but will appear to be too cool and causing too long of a warm up time which triggers code. Will be installing thermostat rated for 195 degrees and re-testing." I will be crossing my fingers and taking it for SMOG tomorrow. Wish me luck! Thanks for your help. Too bad about the dealership closing. I'm sure you will find the right place. Was it a Mitsubishi dealership? Good luck! No worries! Fraglesnag'n skicknsnach gaglesnak! And THIS is the ongoing BS problem with Mitsubishi. ARG!!! At least his assumption is right. Tell him to get the FSMs if he's going to keep working on Mitsu's. Directly from the FSMs - July 1998->on Engine 6G72/4 3.0/3.5L (88°C/190°F) Thermostat valve opening temperature F: 190.4° ± 3.6° Full-opening temperature F: 212° 1997->June 1998 Engine 6G72 3.0L (82°C/180°F) Thermostat valve opening temperature F: 180° ± 2.7° Full-opening temperature F: 203° (BTW, I don't think there even IS a '97-'98 thermostat anymore - PN has been superseded by the '98-on PN. Back in the day, my '97s didn't run right with the spec'd thermostat so I switched to the '98-on years ago and never had another problem. Got the stupid temp OBD code randomly - techs told me to use the '98-on thermostat.) Non-Mistu generic mechanics don't even have FSM for what they're working on most of the time and the on-line/CD generic stuff is wrong the other half. THIS is why customers think Mitsu's are 'finicky'. The wrong stuff is spec'd and installed and then 'weird problems' show up. Sorry for the rant, I shouldn't be surprised - been dealing with this for years and years. THIS is why I go to the dealership. Some thermostat tech - a hotter running engine (to a point) will result in cleaner (better) emissions. God only knows what your 195 starts opening at and is at full open at, but presuming that it STARTS opening at 195, you should be ok. If its at full open AT 195, the engine is going to be running too cold - still. This is inexact but you don't have to pull the thermostat to do it this way. I would suggest hooking up an OBD scanner that does real time readings and look at the ECT. Pop the hood, and start the engine when its cold and let it warm up. While its warming up, feel the top radiator hose about 4-6" from the engine. (be careful, it gets HOT fast) When you start feeling hot antifreeze flowing that's roughly the temperature when the thermostat starts opening. Should be about 195 +/- a couple degrees. If the radiator hose is too hot to touch by the time the scanner reads 195 +/- a couple degrees, then full open is @ 195 and that's bad. Opening too soon will cause a rich condition. This will increase emissions and decrease your fuel mileage and decrease the life span of your CATs. Eventually, you'll almost certainly get a spurious code. If you live in an area with actual winter, you can kiss your cab heat good bye, too, in the winter. Yes, its the Mitsu dealership I've used since I got my first Sport in Jan of '98. They've been around for 30 years and had the same techs most of the time. Guys that have worked on this stuff since the beginning of the '90s. Back when our Sports were still pickups. Edward Well took my rig in today and told the SMOG tech that I only put approx 60 miles after my battery was disconnected and the new CAT installed. He advised to put at least another 40-50 miles on the engine to get the computer back to normal. SO, I drove around tonight and by the time I reach the SMOG place tomorrow I should be well over the 40-50 miles he suggested. Now you have me worried that the thermostat installed might be too high? I wonder what the actual opening temp will be? 230 degrees? OUCH! I don't want to overheat my rig. Looks like I need to invest in a OBD scanner and follow your advice. Since day one of owning my sport, I wondered why the transmission (RPM) ran high when the engine was cold. In the owners manual the transmission runs high in the RPMs to get the engine to heat faster? Since the 2nd day I've owned my rig, I ALWAYS let her warm up for at least five minutes. I try to baby her... I live in Northern California, Wine Country. Or as I call it "Whine Country". All joking aside a beautiful place to live but EXPENSIVE! HA! During winter, night lows can reach just below 20 degrees but then jump back up to 80's in the day time. No snow here and would love to get some RAIN this year. A lot of it, we need it. Cab heat has always been fine. Chris
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Post by ES_97Sport on Oct 24, 2014 13:28:54 GMT -5
... He advised to put at least another 40-50 miles on the engine to get the computer back to normal. SO, I drove around tonight and by the time I reach the SMOG place tomorrow I should be well over the 40-50 miles he suggested. Yep, that's the normal procedure. I've done mine with less but CO is less stringent. My '97s actually take about 3-4 days of driving - for me that's a couple hundred miles, but your ECM isn't as retarded as the '97s. There's two 'too high's. Too high 'starts opening' and 'full open'. Too high isn't what you need to worry about. If it starts opening at 195, you're ok. That's about what the OEM thermostat is supposed to do and +/- a couple degrees from 195 is fine. Warmer is better than colder as long as it doesn't get insane. If its full open at 195, then the thermostat rating is too low. That means its starting to open probably in the mid/high 180s - which is too low. 'full open' will primarily only be an issue if its something completely stupid, like it starts opening at 195 but doesn't get to full open until 220, or it starts at 195 and reaches full at 200. The former will cause the vehicle to heat up under load and high temps and the latter will cause it to run too cold affecting emissions, fuel efficiency and drive-ability. I would strongly suggest just getting a OEM thermostat. You SHOULD have a scanner, but I wouldn't buy one just for this. A good scanner will run you $100+ - not worth it to diagnose a $20 problem. The Transmission Control Unit (TCU) for the A/T from '97-'99 is tied into the ECM, and the PCM in the '00-'05 incorporates the TCU and ECU into one unit - the Powertrain Control Module (PCM). All use the ECT signal to adjust the behavior of the A/T. If you change the temperature the engine runs at you will change the way the transmission behaves. And, yes, that means it will adjust when the transmission shifts. If you do some surfing of the GT/Eclipse/Galant posts you will find questions about 'I changed my thermostat to a nnn degree thermostat and now my vehicle shifts crappy', or doesn't shift, or doesn't shift correctly. You have to be REAL careful what you change on a computer controlled vehicle. Especially on the '00-'05 Sports, EVERYTHING is tied to EVERYTHING else. Changing something as simple as a thermostat will change things elsewhere you never knew could be related. Unfortunately, the thermostat is probably one of the worst things you can change because EVERYTHING is tied to ECT. Even your A/C. I guess you could look at it that way, because the faster the engine warms up the fewer emissions, and the warm up cycle is when the vehicle puts out the most emissions. The FSMs don't put it in just those words, but the point is to decrease emissions. Sounds exactly like CO. At least you don't run 35"s and have to deal with your tire pressure changing 10psi a day. That's good practice. I do the same with mine. That's probably because you had the correct thermostat, but your thermostat directly affects whether or not or how good the cab heat is. If you have a 180 and it's 15 degrees out, you'll freeze. Edward
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Post by chrisho on Nov 3, 2014 0:01:03 GMT -5
Hi Edward,
Thanks for the reply. I HOPE my thermostat lasts and doesn't cause other issues with the transmission so to speak.
Chris
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