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Post by ES_97Sport on Aug 17, 2016 16:58:57 GMT -5
This setup looks way more complex than the F5. 😱😱 It depends, I guess. From a functionality standpoint, its much simpler. + & - leads, sensor leads and one wire to the A/C. No switches. Basically a set and forget controller. And if that's all you want, its as or simpler than a basic relay actuated system. This is effectively the exact setup (minus the A/C lead) as I have in my 'Bird. It doesn't need anything fancy to turn off the fans 'cause I need to do a water crossing and I WANT the fans to continue running after the engine is off to exhaust all the heat. For years I had a huge problem with fuel boil over in the carburetor. Even with a resin isolator, the carburetor would heat soak and the fuel would boil and drain into the intake manifold causing flooding and cylinder wash. Once I installed the setup I have where the fans run for a bit after the engine is off, that problem disappeared. The real issue with this controller centers around the lack of an ignition actuated feed, having to replace all their what-nots with decent parts and their insistence in using a POS radiator probe that only seems to work about 30% of the time. They could fix the second thing by including decent hardware (and admitting to themselves that everyone DOESN'T live in SoCal). And they could fix the third thing by tossing the POS radiator probe and including the one that they already sell. The wiring itself is dirt simple - simpler than the F5 - and for an application like an off road vehicle that is purpose built, its great. If I had to say one unconditionally positive thing about this controller, its that I can build my own harness and not have to rely on what I'm given. Probably the biggest problem with cooling fan and headlight setups is that the harness is under sized for the application. It doesn't matter how good the basic design is, the wiring is always undersized. 10AWG for 60A under the hood of a car is too small unless the run is super short. Using the Derale shroud mount controller (same as mine but mounts to their shroud) as an example, 10AWG would be fine from the fan(s) to the controller because they're at most 1.5-2' long, and even their dual fans pull less than 50A. And generally there's not probably more than 2-3' from there to the battery for a total of 5'. Surprise, surprise, that's what length wire they ship with controllers. I don't know anyone that runs a controller on an off road vehicle - either my vehicle level or above - that has a run less than 6-7'. Mine is about 7'. Batteries are relocated to the rear, controllers are relocated to inside the cab/under the dash, etc. Wire is exposed to a lot of heat. Guys even run the radiator in the back and the battery in the front. Runs are 12-15' long. Being able to build your own purpose specific harness is a huge +. So, I guess it just kinda depends on how you look at it. I am a big fan of 'build your own harness' so this and the DCControl naturally appeal to me. I have some level of electrical/electronics background and most of the harnesses I see out there make me cringe. I thought it was funny that the first tech I talked to at Derale argued that the Contour fans didn't pull anywhere near 30A each, but recommended running 8AWG for the two fans. Edward
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Post by bdmontero on Aug 17, 2016 17:06:06 GMT -5
I don't know how it could be any more simpler on the F5. I'm still interested on the derale but the painless kit I received the parts were good quality and the copper was better than good. I like the fact you can actually unhook the harness and reroute of you need to. The only downside I don't like is the pots and the fact I can't get painless to admit is if it IS or ISNT waterproof. They claim in their install video it is. Heck each individual wire was labeled to what it went to and where to put it. I think mine came with a 70 amp breaker/fuse. I'll double check. It hasn't given me any reason to question its reliability as I've already been to some remote places here plus driving it for a solid year.
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Post by ES_97Sport on Aug 17, 2016 19:24:41 GMT -5
No, you can't do this. Power is fed from the controller and the loop has to terminate at the controller. Otherwise anything that changes the voltage and/or resistance changes the result from the sensor. That's why all the OEM sensors feed regulated voltage from the ECM to the sensor and directly back to the ECM/PCM, or have both leads for measuring resistance feed directly back to the ECM/PCM. There is no ground through the body of the sensor. It is not a switch. ... I went back and saw you cut the connector off the sensor. If the signal is fed from the controller, 12 volts would be too much so I'm assuming the controller would send out a 5 volt signal No, its 12v. Look at the Derale diagram. The image I posted of the controller clearly shows one sensor lead connected to the same post as the 12v feed from the battery. Why are you even bringing this up? What you're talking about doesn't even apply to these controllers. The ONLY thing that COULD have been a problem - BUT ISN'T - was if they were using a different thermistor between the two probes and the resistance values were different. Which they obviously aren't. All the other Derale controllers I've looked at including the one the sensor is supplied with have ignition leads. The ground is there to complete the circuit of a temperature SWITCH. Again, I'm not using a switch. No, the radiator probe DOES NOT ground through the radiator. The radiator probe IS NOT A SWITCH. It is a two wire thermistor. I don't know if you don't understand or you're not paying attention. 99.9% of the temperature SWITCHES have one wire. Power is fed to the sensor and the ground is through the body of the sensor to the block, intake, or whatever-its-screwed-into. The 'controller' senses on/off - that's it. The only thing that has to be made sure of is that the whatever its plugged into is grounded so the electrical path is complete. In the case of a coolant hose manifold, its connected to rubber. THERE IS NO GROUND. A second wire has to be connected to the manifold and then run to a location that is also grounded OR to the negative battery terminal to complete the circuit. A sensor that measures a RANGE OF TEMPERATURE like a thermistor HAS TWO WIRES. BOTH of them connect to the controller. A good example is the OEM ECT sensor. NONE of this type of sensor grounds through the body of the sensor, EVER, because anything interposed in the circuit will skew the reading from the sensor itself. For example, temperature range with a thermistor is measured by the corresponding change in resistance. If the sensor is screwed into the intake manifold, the reading would change at several points along the path - sensor to manifold, manifold to block, block to chassis ground strap, ground strap to battery terminal. I have no idea where exactly you think you're going with this. All that needs to happen is a on/off switch needs to be spliced into the power side of the sensor. And by 'spliced' I mean well soldered and a decent, good quality switch that doesn't have 2K of resistance through it. Edward
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Post by ES_97Sport on Aug 17, 2016 19:33:25 GMT -5
I don't know how it could be any more simpler on the F5. I'm still interested on the derale but the painless kit I received the parts were good quality and the copper was better than good. I like the fact you can actually unhook the harness and reroute of you need to. The only downside I don't like is the pots and the fact I can't get painless to admit is if it IS or ISNT waterproof. They claim in their install video it is. Heck each individual wire was labeled to what it went to and where to put it. I think mine came with a 70 amp breaker/fuse. I'll double check. It hasn't given me any reason to question its reliability as I've already been to some remote places here plus driving it for a solid year. No, I agree with you. I've looked over the docs and images. Its clear and simple and the parts actually look like decent pieces. There just a LOT more functionality in the F5. The Derale only has on potentiometer. That's it. No functionality beyond that. It just modulates the fans around a reading from the sensor. I REALLY wish someone could get a definitive answer on that, too. That's the one thing I really don't like about the F5. I can't remember. I think I remember 75A but I may be confusing it with the Derale. Where did you end up mounting the F5 controller? Something interesting - I THINK Derale got the design from DCControl. What I find interesting is that they claim to have a patent. I need to take a look at that. Not that I really want to start reading patents again, but .... Edward
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Post by jkdv8 on Aug 17, 2016 21:57:02 GMT -5
The point was being able to wire the sensor in a manner to turn the fans off after the car is off. You stated if the power is cut to the sensor the fans don't turn on. If there is no water circulation there is no point in having it running. I could see it maybe on your bird but in this situation it's just a waste. That's a quick way to drain the battery while the benefits of blowing hot air out of the engine bay are negligible. With modern cars the only time this is needed is when a turbo is used i.e. turbo timer whether it's engine and fan or fan only.
Never said it was a switch type. I stated the single wire type were switches. Just doesn't look or sound right cutting off the connector and just plugging it into the sensor + and ground. Obviously the controller that sensor is made for has its own dedicated circuit or else it would be wired in the same fashion.
The positive sensor + has its own dedicated connection. It could very well be 12v but it doesn't share the actual battery + connection unless they connect inside except that would be pointless. It would need a separate connection if were to read anything. They all do share a common ground.
The relay mention wouldn't cause an issue unless it was inbetween the sensor and return to the controller. As long as you duplicate the sensor feed the controller isn't going to be able to tell what's sending the signal it's just reading the difference on the return. We are not talking about precise oem equipment here. It would ultimately be determined on how the controller is wired internally and the sensor. Don't know all the specifics of the controller so by all means disregard. I was just throwing it out there. Carry on.
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Post by ES_97Sport on Aug 29, 2016 17:12:10 GMT -5
Back from 11 days in southern UT. I need a vacation from my vacation now. Excluding the the nut loosening up on the negative post where the two negative fan leads condense into the 8AWG lead into the controller on the way home, the trip was uneventful. With the controller set at opening temp of the Mitsu OEM thermostat we had not issues with overheating under any conditions. Ambient temps ranged from 42F on the way back to Denver to 96-98F on some of the trails. Unfortunately the weather was not cooperating so we spent most of our time in the San Rafael and the Wasatch. Out of about 2500 miles, about 1/3 was off pavement and most of that was in 2WD Lo. The only time I managed to get the ECT up to the point where the thermostat was completely open was on the climb up the canyon from Ferron to the top of the Wasatch. Not terribly steep but long. The temp never went any higher. The rest of the time the coolant temp floated between 192-193F and 203-205F. Mostly on the low side. Locating the temp probe in the radiator outlet works extraordinarily well and the Derale 16750 probe works perfectly. I can't directly compare the Spal and the Derale controllers because I never had a chance to run the Spal on the outlet side, but between my two setups, the Derale is much, much more efficient and the ECT is much more stable. I used the A/C several days off road. For the most part everything seemed to work as it should. I paid closer attention to the A/C temperature and noticed that it did seem colder than it usually is. Wheeling with the windows rolled down and the temps in the mid-high 90Fs, the air coming out was cold. Actually cold enough that I had to periodically turn the A/C off to let my feet warm back up. On the trail in 2WD/4WD Lo, the ECT ran higher with the A/C on. Right around 203-205F, but dropped immediately after the A/C was turned off. I need to poke around with this piece more. I've decided I like the fans staying on for a minute or three after the engine is turned off. They spin down quickly even in +90F temps wheeling in the desert so the likelihood of having a problem - especially running a group 65 AGM battery - is pretty low. What I found out pretty quickly though is that the fans exhaust a lot of the heat from the engine bay that has a tendency to soak into the cab with frequent 10-30 minute stops. You wouldn't think that 2-3 minutes would make much of a difference but does. That said, given the amount of heat exhausted out of the engine bay, I expect that will increase the lifespan of the stuff in the bay some small unmeasurable amount. I still don't like the cheap what-nots of the kit and if possible I like them even less now that this seems like a good, well functioning controller. At least that is a solvable issue. The one thing that is problematic with an off-road vehicle is the lack of any way to manually turn off the fans and that is the only real drawback I can see with this controller at this point. Edward
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Post by dirk on Aug 29, 2016 20:38:23 GMT -5
This is the first belt driven fan vehicle I've had since my first vehicle. The rest have all had electric fans and always stayed on after shut down if the engine was pretty warm. So I've found it odd how hot the engine bay is and gets after shut down on my MS. I am looking forward to when I get around to swapping in an electric fan. A cut off though would be nice though as you already noted.
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Post by jkdv8 on Aug 30, 2016 14:43:54 GMT -5
Glad to hear the trip went smooth.
My concern was the fans running for too long after the engine is shut off but a couple minutes isn't going to hurts anything.
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Post by ES_97Sport on Aug 30, 2016 16:02:47 GMT -5
This is the first belt driven fan vehicle I've had since my first vehicle. The rest have all had electric fans and always stayed on after shut down if the engine was pretty warm. So I've found it odd how hot the engine bay is and gets after shut down on my MS. I am looking forward to when I get around to swapping in an electric fan. A cut off though would be nice though as you already noted. Its even worse with the Gen 1 Sport which has the insulated hood. When we took my '03 out to Moab a few years ago it was downright uncomfortable. The Gen 2 isn't insulated as well as the Gen 1 and we could actually feel the heat radiating off the firewall and the foot area under the pedals and the forward passenger foot well area. One of the first things I'd redo is the interior cab insulation on the '03 if I were planning on spending any amount of time in southern UT. What amazes me is how hot the bay gets on the big Sport given that I have no sub-frame and the thing sits 25" off the ground and no filler panels installed on the fender skirts. Fri and Sat it was in the mid/high 90Fs and when we stopped, turned the engine off and got out with the fans still running, standing within 4-5' of the front wheel wells was very uncomfortable. But, within 2-3 minutes the temp of the air coming out had dropped quite a bit and in maybe another minute the fans were spinning down and then off. The somewhat annoying part is when they turn back on 5 minutes later and run for a minute or two and then turn back off. They don't come on full blast and don't stay on long at all, but it's kinda irritating when you're standing in front of the vehicle taking pictures and they decide to flip on. Edward
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Post by ES_97Sport on Aug 30, 2016 16:11:35 GMT -5
Glad to hear the trip went smooth. My concern was the fans running for too long after the engine is shut off but a couple minutes isn't going to hurts anything. It was fairly unusual for them to be on 100% by the time I turned off the engine and I don't think they were ever on more then 30-45 seconds at 100% before they started ramping down. Even if the fans were on for 5-10 minutes @ 100% and even if they pulled 60A running (which they don't), that's not enough to put even a tiny scratch in a Group 65 AGM. The only drawback here is if there is some kind of internal failure that would cause them to turn on while the vehicle was unattended for a long period of time. Off backpacking for a couple days, for example. But, I expect that's a possible problem with any electric fan controller system even relays. Edward
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Post by ES_97Sport on Sept 6, 2016 19:19:39 GMT -5
Source for the Ford Contour dual fan & shroud. Ford no longer sells the complete unit or the motors which kinda sucks 'cause the Motorcraft parts are better quality than the Chinese aftermarket pieces. Amazon - Four Seasons 75282 Cooling Fan Assembly I checked the company out and apparently this part is manufactured entirely in the US - TX if I remember correctly - including the motors. I don't know if it'll be the same quality as the Motorcraft parts, but I'm hoping its better than the one I have from overseas. This unit does not included the pig-tails for the motors, but it does include the OEM heat shield for the lower motor (which I prefer to have). Edward
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Post by ES_97Sport on Sept 26, 2016 13:40:23 GMT -5
I swapped out my custom Griffon radiator for the original OEM radiator in prep for getting the mount tabs on the custom radiator replaced. I managed to sheer off one and the two bottom ones were well on their way. Afterwards I took it for a 1.5 hour test drive up a couple places where I normally can stress the cooling system. One thing I'm pretty sure of at this point is that there isn't enough room between the fans mounted to the Griffon radiator and the engine. Nothing I can do about that short of moving the engine back a couple inches and that's not going to happen. The fan controller is working well on the OEM radiator. Rock solid consistent temperature. I changed nothing - just took the fans off and bolted them back to the OEM radiator and left the controller adjusted as it was. One thing that I noticed is that the controller cycles a little more often with the OEM radiator. That was expected as the OEM radiator holds about 1/2 the fluid the Griffon does. 'a little more often' isn't much - probably not enough for anyone except me to actually notice. They don't seem to stay on any longer than with the bigger radiator nor are they running at a higher speed. I expect better air flow is offsetting the smaller radiator. Edward
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