Pajer sport 2003 2.5 TD - Geoffrey
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Post by jkdv8 on Dec 19, 2016 22:50:49 GMT -5
Yea they came with geolandar h/t. Think is was G039 model on the spare. Manufacturers typically however use the same rubber compound throughout the series and sometimes the whole product line for the exception of a low pro performance tire vs an all terrain tire. The difference in the tread patterns of the two isn't really night and day though. The a/t version is slightly more aggressive but not as aggressive as other a/t tires. The oem ones also carry the m+s (mud/snow) designation but you'd have to be crazy to try that. Also, the snow flake and mountain stamp isn't based on what the manufacturer thinks or says the tire can do but rather meeting snow traction standards set by the rubber association of canada which is more stringent than what we have here, i.e. the M+S designation. In Ontario they have to have that stamp to be used there. What makes a good snow tire makes a terrible mud tire and vica versa. Mud tires you want to evacuate whereas snow tires you don't as the snow packed in the treads, sticking to the snow on the ground is what makes traction. How well this works however is in direct relation to the weight of the vehicle. How well the tire evacuates mud depends on the size of the tire in relation to the how many revolutions it can make at any given rpm as physics plays a large part if not a bigger part than the tire itself. The outside of a larger tire will not spin as fast as the oem tire would unless the ratios are changed to compensate and completely cancel each other out. You can't have your cake and eat it to Tires, like most things, there isn't a one size/type that fits all. Otherwise there wouldn't be people running two or three sets of tires depending on the weather. All seasons do just enough to get by but don't any one thing very well. A/T tires can be noisy and drop your gas mileage and do well off road but suck in the mud. M/T tires are the best for mud, sand, rocks, you name it off road but suck on road as they're noisy, ride like poo, and are terrible for gas mileage. To the OP, having the tires siped I heard improves the tires performance overall as well. Haven't done it myself though.
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Post by martin on Dec 20, 2016 6:35:23 GMT -5
Geolender is Yokohama!
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Post by ES_97Sport on Dec 20, 2016 17:02:00 GMT -5
... The difference in the tread patterns of the two isn't really night and day though. The a/t version is slightly more aggressive but not as aggressive as other a/t tires. Yes, it is. No. SNOW tires should be very aggressive and self evacuate. ICE tires - which ARE NOT THE SAME - should pack up and retain the snow in the tread. That is because the friction coefficient is higher between snow and ice than it is between rubber and ice. If SNOW tires pack up, you have bald tires and nothing to bite into the snow and move the vehicle forward. Maybe on a Bogger, but that's not what we're talking about here. The OP ready has a tire size in mind in which case self evacuation has everything to do with the tread design and compound and NOTHING to do with the size of the tire. Where to start ... No, all A/Ts do NOT "suck in the mud". It depends on the tire. M/Ts are NOT 'best for ... sand'. A/Ts or very mild tread M/Ts are, with very soft sidewalls. All M/Ts do not 'suck on the road'. They're not all noisy, they do not all ride like 'poo', and they're not all 'terrible for gas mileage'. Edward
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Post by martin on Dec 20, 2016 17:53:03 GMT -5
Fellow MS drivers comparing tires is even worst then comparing skis, driving style, engine (we all drive MS) but for example mine is diesel, and it is low on power but I have all the torque and power in low rpm (can go from 3. Gear easily) , I have very light right foot, etc. From my point of view my current tire is very good, but I know it is just a road tire that is not bad on some light off road. Mud tires have big drawback for me because most of it is not snow worthy (no snow flake ) and I really think that kind of mud that needs serious mud tire is not my cup of tea. On the other hand - There is a sale currently and I could get 4 bfg at ko2 with snowflake and mountain for cca 500$, and I am really, really tempted. 235/85/16 size. (Im not sure that they would fit )
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Post by jkdv8 on Dec 20, 2016 23:12:40 GMT -5
No. SNOW tires should be very aggressive and self evacuate. ICE tires - which ARE NOT THE SAME - should pack up and retain the snow in the tread. That is because the friction coefficient is higher between snow and ice than it is between rubber and ice. If SNOW tires pack up, you have bald tires and nothing to bite into the snow and move the vehicle forward. Edward Now I've heard this before but just doing a quick search yielded these results. "Like any good winter tire, the iceGUARDs are designed to pack snow into their treads, as snow sticks to snow, thus providing optimal traction." link"The key to snow tires’ effectiveness starts with their tread. Snow tires have a very deep tread pattern that allows them to pack snow in while they’re moving without slipping. The deeper a tire's tread, the more able it is to safely pack in snow." linkIt's also the reason the 'legal' tread depth for winter tires requires more tread than that of summer or all seasons. Channels in the tread aid in pushing snow, water, and slush from between the tire and the road surface while siping allow it to grip better. Snow, ice, slush whatever, they are referred to as winter tires. I for one have never heard of an ice tire. The only thing good for ice is a studded tire when the temp is a few degrees on either side of freezing. Too cold they can't dig in and too warm there is nothing to dig into. When have you ever seen a winter tire with aggressive treads? The yoko mentioned in that link as well as that blizztek or whatever from Firestone are two of the best winter tires out there and neither one looks like an a/t or m/t tire. Fellow MS drivers comparing tires is even worst then comparing skis, driving style, engine (we all drive MS) but for example mine is diesel, and it is low on power but I have all the torque and power in low rpm (can go from 3. Gear easily) , I have very light right foot, etc. From my point of view my current tire is very good, but I know it is just a road tire that is not bad on some light off road. Mud tires have big drawback for me because most of it is not snow worthy (no snow flake ) and I really think that kind of mud that needs serious mud tire is not my cup of tea. On the other hand - There is a sale currently and I could get 4 bfg at ko2 with snowflake and mountain for cca 500$, and I am really, really tempted. 235/85/16 size. (Im not sure that they would fit ) Yea the hood scoop is a diesel giveaway
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Post by martin on Dec 21, 2016 5:45:31 GMT -5
On subject of snow, there is a different types of snow, loos, sticky, wet, dry and big difference is depth. It is totally different weather you can touch firm ground or you must make it firm (if it is possibel).
I assume that different conditions requires different tire.
One thing that you two didnt mentioned is tire compound, tire must not stiffen in cold temperatures and IMHO that is at least half of the story.
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Post by ES_97Sport on Dec 21, 2016 15:50:20 GMT -5
... Snow, ice, slush whatever, they are referred to as winter tires. I for one have never heard of an ice tire. The only thing good for ice is a studded tire when the temp is a few degrees on either side of freezing. Too cold they can't dig in and too warm there is nothing to dig into. When have you ever seen a winter tire with aggressive treads? The yoko mentioned in that link as well as that blizztek or whatever from Firestone are two of the best winter tires out there and neither one looks like an a/t or m/t tire. I am not going to argue with you over stuff you - yet again - obviously have no practical knowledge of. Nor am I going to argue with you over the difference between advertising, the internet and real life. Edward
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Post by ES_97Sport on Dec 21, 2016 17:31:51 GMT -5
On subject of snow, there is a different types of snow, loos, sticky, wet, dry and big difference is depth. It is totally different weather you can touch firm ground or you must make it firm (if it is possibel). I assume that different conditions requires different tire. Yes. There is a LOT of difference. I live where snow ranges from 0" to 3-4'+ every year and I snow-wheel as well in snow from 2-4' to as much as 15-18' (big, BIG drifts) and the snow consistency is anything from dry powder with practically no water content (like the last couple storms) to the consistency of half set concrete. Half frozen, partially frozen, frozen layers with half melted layers, packed, blown, etc. We get solid sheet ice, packed snow, mix, and LOTS and LOTS of slush from a 1" or 2" to 1-3'. Temperatures range from 60-70F to sub zero; the temp swings can be wide and fast and frequent. We also get a lot of wind. A dubious 'benefit' of living in a place where the altitude runs from 4000-14,000' at the trailing edge of a major mountain range. Excepting glaciers, if its possible we run through the entire gamut every year. Yippee. Yea, technically, you would be correct. Now a days its possible to buy a tire specifically designed for one thing. Manufacturers even design tire for specific types of 4-wheeling now. The problem is always with dual purpose vehicle for street and trail - choosing a tire that is suitable for all seasons and all terrain. Tire requirements vary drastically depending on what kind of snow, snow/ice mix. Wet snow and/or slush will pack most tires immediately and you will have four effectively bald tires. i.e. BFG A/Ts. I see it EVERY TIME IT SNOWS here. 'most' also includes some M/Ts. A very good self-evacuating, reasonably wide channel tread (with a decent amount left) irrespective of whether its a all-season, A/T, M/T, or bicycle tire works well. Really dry snow depends more on the surface below the snow than the snow itself. Very dry snow will blow out from under the tires on the road leaving just the road surface. If its really icy underneath, anything soft with a LOT of siping but anything with adequate depth up to and including A/Ts are sufficient even if its 2' deep. If its really slushy with a foot or two of dry powder on top, something aggressive with good self-evacuation characteristics. Hard pack graded snow and ice - a good snow tire. Lots and lots of siping and a really soft compound - the colder it gets, the softer the compound. There's no need for a particularly aggressive tread - in fact, in this case you want as much tire surface on the road as possible so large void tread is counter productive. In between snow - between slop and zero water content snow - depends on the depth of the snow and personal preference, but generally something reasonably aggressive with a soft compound, lots of siping and reasonable self-evacuation is sufficient. The best advice I can give is to figure out what your average conditions are, what you drive most in and choose your tires accordingly. You can't buy an optimal tire for all conditions our you'll end up with half a dozen sets of tires. I compromise by running A/Ts on my stock Sports and M/Ts on my big Sport in the winter. That way I can pretty much cover everything we get here - as long as I have the right vehicle at the right time. BTW, I would not recommend depending on that stupid snow flake symbol in making a tire choice. Sorry! You are correct. Because the siping stops working, the sidewalls stop flexing, tread stops conforming to the road surface, and the friction coefficient goes down as rubber compounds get colder. And I'm sure those aren't the only factors. This is a large part of the reason why 'extended or long life 80K+ mile' tires suck so bad in the cold. Not on ice, or in snow - in the cold on bare, dry pavement - and the colder it gets the harder the rubber gets. Its also why true snow and ice tires are made out of such insanely soft rubber compounds. And why most cheap, commodity M/Ts suck on ice even with siping. Edward
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Post by martin on Dec 21, 2016 18:47:36 GMT -5
This whole story reminds me why I dont like VW Golf (or Jetta) from one point of view it has good mpg, can accomodate 4 adults with luggage in reasonable comfort, not too big not too small engines, ratger cheap etc. But on the other hand it doesnt not have good enough mpg, it is not big enough, for few grand more you can buy much better car... and it was best selling car numerous times. With tires it seems the same to me. It would be silly to have 5 or more sets and look at the forecast to guess what set to fit... I am inssisting on snowflake and mountain cause that should mean that tire passed some winter test (friction coefficient over some value), better then m+s, tire compund should be softer... I would love to have that much snow here Have to drive 4 hours for nearest mountain. Acctually I live on old seebad of panonian see, so it is flat as glass, 70m above see level. Godd thing is alps are 5 hours drive . (Ski season is starting )
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Post by jkdv8 on Dec 21, 2016 22:29:50 GMT -5
... Snow, ice, slush whatever, they are referred to as winter tires. I for one have never heard of an ice tire. The only thing good for ice is a studded tire when the temp is a few degrees on either side of freezing. Too cold they can't dig in and too warm there is nothing to dig into. When have you ever seen a winter tire with aggressive treads? The yoko mentioned in that link as well as that blizztek or whatever from Firestone are two of the best winter tires out there and neither one looks like an a/t or m/t tire. I am not going to argue with you over stuff you - yet again - obviously have no practical knowledge of. Nor am I going to argue with you over the difference between advertising, the internet and real life. Edward AH yes o wise master technician how could I have been so foolish. I'm only searching for the truth not an argument. Insulting my intelligence doesn't make you appear smarter and after some of your posts in this thread leads me to question your knowledge on the subject even with all your 'experience.' You throw a set of tires on a truck and when they don't do what you want you blame the tire while ignoring all other factors like driver error for instance. You say the bfg a/t sucks in the snow when they have been put through the paces (in REAL world places more treacherous than Colorado) and passed the severe weather tests issued by an independent agency. It's worth noting though not all of the bfg a/t tires had the mountain/snowflake designation which could be due to different compounds over the years. If the last time you used a set was 30 years ago then that may be why. Or maybe you're confused as to the meaning behind the snowflake/mountain symbol vs the M+S,M/S,M-S symbols. The mud/snow symbols ARE placed on the tire by the manufacture just based on looking at the tread design whereas the snowflake/mountain symbol are placed on tires that past the severe weather tests. Of course this isn't an indication of the best tire that's out there but it does shed some light on what it's capable of. Also, the write up of that Yokohama tire in that link was from a review from a guy in the REAL world putting it through the paces. Yokohama placed it on their website as ADVERTISING. Guess what? The treads were packed in snow just like all the other winter tires you see.... On subject of snow, there is a different types of snow, loos, sticky, wet, dry and big difference is depth. It is totally different weather you can touch firm ground or you must make it firm (if it is possibel). I assume that different conditions requires different tire. One thing that you two didnt mentioned is tire compound, tire must not stiffen in cold temperatures and IMHO that is at least half of the story. Yea I meant to throw it in there and forgot. It's mentioned in those links I posted. Softer rubber, by using more rubber and less additives, silica for traction aid, sipes, etc. A winter set and a standard (summer) set are enough for most people. Some of the best winter tires are only limited by what the vehicle is capable of i.e. power train and ground clearance. It wouldn't hurt to read up on what people use in relation to what you typically deal with. People in the snow belt and up north in the U.S. think they're the abominable snowman when in reality we only get flurries compared to most places in the world.
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Post by MonteroSportHonduras on Dec 22, 2016 8:22:05 GMT -5
I just came here to see pictures of his truck, but no pics...
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Post by martin on Dec 22, 2016 16:55:05 GMT -5
I just came here to see pictures of his truck, but no pics... Promise to upload some in next few days!
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Post by martin on Dec 24, 2016 10:47:31 GMT -5
Will do some more
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Post by martin on Dec 24, 2016 11:34:12 GMT -5
As you may notice it has different tires and rims. Went for 7" rim and bought that bfgs.
When I saw the size of it in the shop thoight it wont fit, but it does. They run great on road. Skidding a bit on frozen moisture and dirt on the rode, but thats like ice. Havent tried them off road yet. Extremly quiet, cannot notice any difference, think it would gove beyter mpg.
Will report more soon.
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Post by martin on Dec 25, 2016 14:42:00 GMT -5
Had some snow on the road and they are winter tires. Cannot wait to try them off road. youtu.be/jxiLJ94LbnQFor some reason i cannot upload via imageshack
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