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Post by 6500rpm on Sept 27, 2014 17:39:01 GMT -5
I can't seem to find any specs on ride height in the service manual, it seems to me that my 97 sport has always sat a bit lower in the front than the rear but I never checked until recently. The front bumper weight dropped the front end about 3/4" as measured from the ground to the front jacking plate bottoms in a before to after measurement.
Three questions-
1) Is there a known spec for ride height? (just looking for a reference point)
2) How far or how much lift can I expect to get out of cranking on the front torsion bars without putting excessive stress on them?
I can say that the left torsion bar had been cranked down significantly more than the right as a starting point (the lever arm is further up in the cross member and has about an inch more exposed thread at the top). Once again, the vehicle has served me well for years and is more of a toy at this point to be used in crappy weather and will most likely never see the off road punishment that many of you use your vehicles for.
3) Were these always raked back to front, and if so-why?
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Post by jay4x4 on Sept 27, 2014 22:51:35 GMT -5
I can't seem to find any specs on ride height in the service manual, it seems to me that my 97 sport has always sat a bit lower in the front than the rear but I never checked until recently. The front bumper weight dropped the front end about 3/4" as measured from the ground to the front jacking plate bottoms in a before to after measurement.
Three questions-
1) Is there a known spec for ride height? (just looking for a reference point)
2) How far or how much lift can I expect to get out of cranking on the front torsion bars without putting excessive stress on them?
I can say that the left torsion bar had been cranked down significantly more than the right as a starting point (the lever arm is further up in the cross member and has about an inch more exposed thread at the top). Once again, the vehicle has served me well for years and is more of a toy at this point to be used in crappy weather and will most likely never see the off road punishment that many of you use your vehicles for.
3) Were these always raked back to front, and if so-why?
I've never found a spec but can tell you that my drivers side was the same. Usually stiffer because that's where the driver is, coil springs are the same, one is a tad longer. How much if would probably depend on condition of bars. Mine were maxed out and still sat lower than stock sports I've seen around. Now I have ome bars and got a lift.(not sure amount but gained about 2 1/2" in front and 4" in the rear.) you can only crank so much with a bar even with a reindex you will hit the bumpstop and put your cv in funny angles. My sport has a pretty decent rake. Have yet to see another like it, I talked to OME And they said they design a bit of rake into the kit. Most trucks do. That's why they have things like leveling kits. |
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Post by ES_97Sport on Sept 30, 2014 16:38:07 GMT -5
I can't seem to find any specs on ride height in the service manual, it seems to me that my 97 sport has always sat a bit lower in the front than the rear but I never checked until recently. .... Yea, Jay's correct. They all sit slightly lower in the front. Uh, that's strange. I thought for sure I've seen the specs for the front in the factory service manuals. Techs need that to adjust the torsion bars to the correct preload. 6500rpm, where were you looking? Edward |
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Post by jay4x4 on Oct 3, 2014 23:57:45 GMT -5
They must have specs in the FSM, I just googled and never found anything lol.
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Post by ES_97Sport on Oct 6, 2014 16:42:37 GMT -5
They must have specs in the FSM, I just googled and never found anything lol. Yea, I don't look for that stuff on the 'net. I look at the FSMs. Edward |
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Post by 6500rpm on Oct 12, 2014 21:07:09 GMT -5
Haven't been on the board lately but I have a 4 volume FSM set and looked for it in both the general specs section and in the suspension/torsion bar replacement sections. The only spec I could find was a bump stop gap measurement. I've got it pretty close to the point it was at before installing the front bumper and need to drop it off for an alignment just to verify it's right (I don't have any pulls or uneven tire wear at this point). My only real concern was that the vehicle's 17 years old and it may have sagged a bit over the years. I will say this, I've owned it for 16 years, in that time it's never cupped or screwed up tires like a lot of new SUV's I work on and I've never had it aligned. The only front end part that's needed to be replaced is the idler arm. When I installed the larger tires a few months ago they ran an alignment check and found it so close to spec that they didn't feel an alignment was required and provided me with the print out. Not bad for a vehicle nearly 20 years old with 240K+ miles.
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Post by jay4x4 on Oct 15, 2014 14:29:47 GMT -5
Haven't been on the board lately but I have a 4 volume FSM set and looked for it in both the general specs section and in the suspension/torsion bar replacement sections. The only spec I could find was a bump stop gap measurement. I've got it pretty close to the point it was at before installing the front bumper and need to drop it off for an alignment just to verify it's right (I don't have any pulls or uneven tire wear at this point). My only real concern was that the vehicle's 17 years old and it may have sagged a bit over the years. I will say this, I've owned it for 16 years, in that time it's never cupped or screwed up tires like a lot of new SUV's I work on and I've never had it aligned. The only front end part that's needed to be replaced is the idler arm. When I installed the larger tires a few months ago they ran an alignment check and found it so close to spec that they didn't feel an alignment was required and provided me with the print out. Not bad for a vehicle nearly 20 years old with 240K+ miles. I'm at 245k now. My stock bars were toast. I got ome now but definitely need to get a winch bumper now, not for winch or protection, although that helps, but as ES has mentioned before the bars are meant for extra weight so with them and cranked I lost up travel and will push the body up before the tire compressed into the wheel well. Actually screwed me on my last wheeling trip trying to climb up a rock on a off camber situation. |
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Post by ES_97Sport on Oct 15, 2014 14:31:41 GMT -5
Haven't been on the board lately but I have a 4 volume FSM set and looked for it in both the general specs section and in the suspension/torsion bar replacement sections. The only spec I could find was a bump stop gap measurement. I've got it pretty close to the point it was at before installing the front bumper and need to drop it off for an alignment just to verify it's right (I don't have any pulls or uneven tire wear at this point). My only real concern was that the vehicle's 17 years old and it may have sagged a bit over the years. I will say this, I've owned it for 16 years, in that time it's never cupped or screwed up tires like a lot of new SUV's I work on and I've never had it aligned. The only front end part that's needed to be replaced is the idler arm. When I installed the larger tires a few months ago they ran an alignment check and found it so close to spec that they didn't feel an alignment was required and provided me with the print out. Not bad for a vehicle nearly 20 years old with 240K+ miles. They're solid vehicles - especially the '97-'99s. Its hard to beat the drive train and steering for durability. Even when I was running 33"s on my big Sport before the SAS, I never had any problems, and I ran it like that for four years. Never had alignment issues. Never had to replace any of the steering components. And, NEVER had tire wear problems and that was driving it with no front or rear sway bars. Put a lot of miles on it both on and off road - more than I do now even. CoSport didn't start having steering machanical issues until he went to 35"s on the stock parts and that was due more to the fact that in order to fit 35"s the steering geometry was completely maxed out. There wasn't even any way to align it by that time.  The only thing I had to replace before the SAS was the drive side CV. That's about the only thing the Montero guys ever have problems with, too. But, CVs with big tires and heavy off road usage don't last on anything. +1 on the tire problems. I can't count how many times I've listened to people with other vehicle makes complaining. That's what happens when manufacturers cheap out. Stuff isn't strong enough to hold the geometry or the geometry isn't right in the first place. Edward |
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Post by 6500rpm on Oct 15, 2014 15:36:28 GMT -5
Edward, I found one of your older posts on torsion bars and it got me interested again so out to the garage I went. It looks like the lower bump stop measurement is the benchmark for ride height. It calls out a new bump stop height as 2" and the bump stop gap as .7" (adjust accordingly for worn/older bump stops). I still have room to grow.
A few things I found by raising the ride height with a floor jack were that at .7" on the lowers, the upper stop gap was around 1.25". If you really raised it so the upper and lower bump stops were equal (about 1" on each in my case) the rear of the vehicle is still about 3/4" proud. It really doesn't amount to anything other than a observation, the spec is .7"-I've definitely hit the bottom stops way more than the top. Guess I'll give it a few more turns for now and start shopping around for aftermarket bars as I'm sure the factory set has stress relieved and drooped over the years. I put a deck lid spoiler on the wife's new car and had the windows tinted, need to keep the car love equal (;
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Post by ES_97Sport on Oct 16, 2014 14:23:12 GMT -5
... A few things I found by raising the ride height with a floor jack were that at .7" on the lowers, the upper stop gap was around 1.25". If you really raised it so the upper and lower bump stops were equal (about 1" on each in my case) the rear of the vehicle is still about 3/4" proud. It really doesn't amount to anything other than a observation, the spec is .7"-I've definitely hit the bottom stops way more than the top. .... Yep, I had the techs adjust my little '97 when I got it after the bull bar and Warn were installed and it still sits a bit high in the rear for my tastes although things are where they're supposed to be. If you load the back this way, at least it sits level vs. nose up.  I've noticed that my '03, however, sits more level than the '90s models. I usually try to have a little more room for compression than droop, but that depends a lot on what you drive on, tires size, how tight the bars are and stuff. When I was running 33"s there wasn't much point in giving it too much compression room (upwards travel) because the bars were so tight it was difficult to compress the bars enough to use it. Edward |
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Post by 6500rpm on Oct 16, 2014 18:09:51 GMT -5
The bump stop gap measurement works out pretty well. I grabbed a piece if 3/4" round stock after work today and more or less used it like a feeler gauge for the gap between the rubber bumper and stop. Gave each side a few turns, drove it around the block to let things settle in and rechecked a few times. My rubber bumpers were still really close to the 2" spec. Worked both sides until I had what felt like minimal, even drag. Fuel tank was full and tires all at 35 psi,no other crap in the car (but I thought about throwing 180lbs of something in the drivers seat). After I was done adjusting I did a few frame to ground measurements at specific points and it was within 1/8" or less side to side-I was kind of shocked. Back in the day I had access to racing scales and float plates, it would have been interesting to scale things out for shits n grins just to see how things work out. hey, thanks again for all the post you've made over the years. The more I go back in time and read, the more I pick up on. At some point you guys have probably already answered most of the questions I've asked but didn't find in a search.
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Post by ES_97Sport on Oct 17, 2014 14:13:14 GMT -5
The bump stop gap measurement works out pretty well. I grabbed a piece if 3/4" round stock after work today and more or less used it like a feeler gauge for the gap between the rubber bumper and stop. ... Fuel tank was full and tires all at 35 psi,no other crap in the car (but I thought about throwing 180lbs of something in the drivers seat). ... Back in the day I had access to racing scales and float plates, it would have been interesting to scale things out for shits n grins just to see how things work out. ... Cool! That's a really good idea! I hadn't thought of that. I'll have to keep that in mind. If most of your driving is with just you, and you can find someone that'll actually do this, have the alignment done with you or someone of reasonably close weight sitting in the driver seat. The race shop here in Denver that does the alignments on my 'Bird did this for me MANY years ago when they got their first computer controlled alignment machine. They set the alignment with one of the shop guys that was my height and weight in the driver seat, then had him get out and showed me how much the alignment changed between the two. WOW. That was an eye opener! My 'Bird is really sensitive to the alignment. Partially because of what its built for, the insane crazy 70/30 front/rear weight ratio and that ginormous Pontiac engine. I don't think I got more than a half a dozen blocks and I could tell a huge difference. I'd always fought a slight side-to-side bias for several years and after a dozen alignments and it'd never occurred to me that just my sitting in it would make THAT much difference. That thing is absolutely scarey in the corners now - like its mounted on tracks. Its absolutely 100% dead even and consistent side to side. Same goes for having it aligned with weight in the back that the vehicle normally carries. Doesn't do much with a solid axle front, but dropping/raising the rear makes a much bigger difference in IFS vehicle alignment. Fuel tank thing is also a good idea but I do it with half a tank. Stupid side mounted gas tanks. Sigh. I figured half a tank was a good compromise. The race shop has wheel scales, but I don't. I do have a truck stop with weight scales that'll do front/rear. When I did my big Sport for this leaf spring revision, it was very interesting. Now quite what I expected, either. I've been meaning to get back down to do a new check with all the changes, 'cause I'm pretty sure it's changed quite a bit just based on how it drives. No worries. Its a pet peeve of mine that information never gets passed on. It used to bug me when I was younger, but now it drives me nuts. And then I realize how much stuff I've gone through that never gets passed on so I'm just trying to get it out there. Kinda really hit me when my machinist died two-three years ago. That guy was a huge repository of knowledge from the 50s till now and it all went away with him - minus the little he'd passed on to me. Told my parents I don't mind getting old, what really sucks is everyone else around me getting old. A lot of knowledge is being lost .... Edward |
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I've noticed that my '03, however, sits more level than the '90s models.