Just did my first long trip with the Montero Sport
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Post by MonteroSportHonduras on Mar 14, 2016 12:39:08 GMT -5
Drove a total of 415 miles with the Sport.
Needless to say 150k miles mean nothing to this trucks. 0 issues at all and it was really good in the ride comfort part.
I ended up burning 1 full tank and a qt of gas.
Most of the roads where up hills so I had to select 3rd gear to keep constant acceleration; it usually went up hill at 50-60 mph, did the same when coming down to avoid overheating the brakes.
The 3.0 has decent power up hills, Its no v8 but I live happily with it.
I did had a couple "Ohh sh!t" moments because took some turns too fast while coming down hill, and this thing likes to lean sideways a lot.
The lean will be fixed once I get new shocks because the current ones are shot.
Brakes need to be replaced too, which brings me to the question. Is there a way to improve braking? Like getting calipers from a different Mitsu model or something like that?
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Post by ES_97Sport on Mar 14, 2016 19:18:36 GMT -5
... this thing likes to lean sideways a lot. Totally been there!  ... Brakes need to be replaced too, which brings me to the question. Is there a way to improve braking? Like getting calipers from a different Mitsu model or something like that?[/quote] You're timing is perfect! I actually have some definitive information on this topic. On the Sports, there are two size brake master cylinders and two size calipers. The easiest way to identify what you have is to see what size brake master cylinder (BMC) you have. The OEM (Nabco) BMC has the piston diameter cast into the aluminum housing on the bottom towards the end (next to the battery). The standard Gen 1 and Gen 2 Sports use a 15/16" BMC and the 'big brakes' Sport - the larger calipers - uses the 1" BMC. I have both. My Gen 1 little '97 LS and '99 Limited both use the standard 15/16" BMC setup and my '03 Limited uses the 1" with the big calipers. And, I can't tell any difference AT ALL in braking ability.  I've towed my 'Bird with my '03 on a car dolly and loaded 14' box trailers with the '97. The only Sport with brakes that are significantly better than the Gen 1's are the ones on the big Sport - which are GM D52 front & Ford Exploder rear so not Mitsubishi. What I can tell you for absolute certainty is that changing from the standard to the larger size BMC and calipers would be a total waste of time and money. I could do the math but the fact of the matter is, the increase in pad area and rotor diameter isn't enough to be worth the change - there just isn't enough difference between the standard and larger setups. If you want a more detailed explanation of the reasoning, let me know. What CAN help is a change to different rotors and pads. If I remember correctly, its still possible to buy StopTech slotted rotors. These won't necessarily help stopping. The point of the slots is to allow gas build up under high heat to escape from between the pad and rotor. This is a good thing - if the gas builds up it behaves like water between the road and your tire. The pad 'hydroplanes' on the rotor. As I said, this may not improve braking and it will only improve things under specific circumstances. They're good for mountain driving where you're into the brakes a lot and good for towing where you're converting a lot of energy to heat stopping. DO NOT get drilled rotors - ever - especially if you're going off road. 'Cryo' - cryogenically frozen - rotors won't help you're breaking directly, either. They last longer because the freezing makes them more durable. The idea here is that using these rotors allows the use of more aggressive brake pads. Very aggressive brake pads will tear the hell out of OEM rotors so that limits what you can do with one of the easiest things you can change that will have the most obvious impact. Which leads to brake pads ... this is the #1 easiest thing you can change that will have the biggest impact on braking. The Sports brakes are not deficient - even the smaller Gen 1 brakes. Both CoSport and I could lock up the brakes on his '98 and my '97 sitting on 35" tires with OEM brake pads, rotors, calipers and BMCs. Obviously the mechanical design isn't an issue so its best to stick to a little tweaking.  The idea is to match the operating temperatures and friction coefficients to the type of driving and GVW of the vehicle (including trailer if it doesn't have e-brakes). Wilwood recommended the 'E' pads for vehicles like my big Sport. Heavy (6000+ lbs) but with relatively low brake temperatures experienced while wheeling because of the super low gearing. In that case, you need a very high friction pad that operates well from ambient F to around 500 F. After 500 F isn't real important 'cause it'll never get going fast enough to generate that much heat. Another example is the difference between driving an A/T and a M/T. Typically, a M/T driver spends up to 2/3rds less time in the brakes than an A/T driver. M/T drivers typically use compression braking to slow before using the brakes resulting in overall cooler running brakes. Again, this is a case where a higher friction coefficient at a lower operating temperature is important. Racers run into the same issues. Short track road race generates a LOT of brake heat - higher friction coefficient at a higher operating temp. Long circle track, lower temperatures - higher friction, lower operating temp. This is kind of one of those things that you have to judge for yourself because only you know how and what you drive and it might take a couple tries before you find what you like and what works the best. I can give you a generic recommendation to at least use 'FF' edge code pads, but YMMV. While I don't like how noisy the Wilwood pads are - no, they don't make them for Mitsu - I really like their graphs of pad performance. At least for me, it helped see why Wilwood made the recommendation they had. Your best bet for a street driven heavy Sport with mild off road use is probably something close to the 'E' pad in performance. DO NOT go the other direction or things will get worse. You don't want pads that have to be heated up to work correctly. Not just annoying but dangerous. Edward |
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Post by MonteroSportHonduras on Mar 15, 2016 9:59:08 GMT -5
... this thing likes to lean sideways a lot. Totally been there! ... Brakes need to be replaced too, which brings me to the question. Is there a way to improve braking? Like getting calipers from a different Mitsu model or something like that? You're timing is perfect! I actually have some definitive information on this topic. On the Sports, there are two size brake master cylinders and two size calipers. The easiest way to identify what you have is to see what size brake master cylinder (BMC) you have. The OEM (Nabco) BMC has the piston diameter cast into the aluminum housing on the bottom towards the end (next to the battery). The standard Gen 1 and Gen 2 Sports use a 15/16" BMC and the 'big brakes' Sport - the larger calipers - uses the 1" BMC. I have both. My Gen 1 little '97 LS and '99 Limited both use the standard 15/16" BMC setup and my '03 Limited uses the 1" with the big calipers. And, I can't tell any difference AT ALL in braking ability. I've towed my 'Bird with my '03 on a car dolly and loaded 14' box trailers with the '97. The only Sport with brakes that are significantly better than the Gen 1's are the ones on the big Sport - which are GM D52 front & Ford Exploder rear so not Mitsubishi. What I can tell you for absolute certainty is that changing from the standard to the larger size BMC and calipers would be a total waste of time and money. I could do the math but the fact of the matter is, the increase in pad area and rotor diameter isn't enough to be worth the change - there just isn't enough difference between the standard and larger setups. If you want a more detailed explanation of the reasoning, let me know. What CAN help is a change to different rotors and pads. If I remember correctly, its still possible to buy StopTech slotted rotors. These won't necessarily help stopping. The point of the slots is to allow gas build up under high heat to escape from between the pad and rotor. This is a good thing - if the gas builds up it behaves like water between the road and your tire. The pad 'hydroplanes' on the rotor. As I said, this may not improve braking and it will only improve things under specific circumstances. They're good for mountain driving where you're into the brakes a lot and good for towing where you're converting a lot of energy to heat stopping. DO NOT get drilled rotors - ever - especially if you're going off road. 'Cryo' - cryogenically frozen - rotors won't help you're breaking directly, either. They last longer because the freezing makes them more durable. The idea here is that using these rotors allows the use of more aggressive brake pads. Very aggressive brake pads will tear the hell out of OEM rotors so that limits what you can do with one of the easiest things you can change that will have the most obvious impact. Which leads to brake pads ... this is the #1 easiest thing you can change that will have the biggest impact on braking. The Sports brakes are not deficient - even the smaller Gen 1 brakes. Both CoSport and I could lock up the brakes on his '98 and my '97 sitting on 35" tires with OEM brake pads, rotors, calipers and BMCs. Obviously the mechanical design isn't an issue so its best to stick to a little tweaking. The idea is to match the operating temperatures and friction coefficients to the type of driving and GVW of the vehicle (including trailer if it doesn't have e-brakes). Wilwood recommended the 'E' pads for vehicles like my big Sport. Heavy (6000+ lbs) but with relatively low brake temperatures experienced while wheeling because of the super low gearing. In that case, you need a very high friction pad that operates well from ambient F to around 500 F. After 500 F isn't real important 'cause it'll never get going fast enough to generate that much heat. Another example is the difference between driving an A/T and a M/T. Typically, a M/T driver spends up to 2/3rds less time in the brakes than an A/T driver. M/T drivers typically use compression braking to slow before using the brakes resulting in overall cooler running brakes. Again, this is a case where a higher friction coefficient at a lower operating temperature is important. Racers run into the same issues. Short track road race generates a LOT of brake heat - higher friction coefficient at a higher operating temp. Long circle track, lower temperatures - higher friction, lower operating temp. This is kind of one of those things that you have to judge for yourself because only you know how and what you drive and it might take a couple tries before you find what you like and what works the best. I can give you a generic recommendation to at least use 'FF' edge code pads, but YMMV. While I don't like how noisy the Wilwood pads are - no, they don't make them for Mitsu - I really like their graphs of pad performance. At least for me, it helped see why Wilwood made the recommendation they had. Your best bet for a street driven heavy Sport with mild off road use is probably something close to the 'E' pad in performance. DO NOT go the other direction or things will get worse. You don't want pads that have to be heated up to work correctly. Not just annoying but dangerous. Edward[/quote] Awesome information as always!! thanks a lot!!
Keep in mind I don't have that much to choose from down here, so based on your info I will get me the best pads I can staying within the OEM specs. I don't drive hard too much, but I have noticed that my pads (Haven't replaced them since I got the truck) tend to over heat and smell really fast when I drive hard. Brake response decreases rapidly so I assume the PO got the cheapest pads she could. They still lock up the tires if I slam the brakes and I also tested my bro's Sport with new rotors and pads and it brakes way better than mine so now I know it is not a deficient braking system, it is that mine is shot. Shocks also affect since it tends to raise the a$$ horribly as well.
I will save a bit more so I can get new rotors since mine are warped for sure, it vibrates a lot when braking from speed.
Off roading on this truck is mostly driving on dirt roads and light mud since it is a 2WD with HT rated tires. |
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Post by MonteroSportHonduras on Mar 15, 2016 10:04:13 GMT -5
Totally been there! ... Brakes need to be replaced too, which brings me to the question. Is there a way to improve braking? Like getting calipers from a different Mitsu model or something like that? You're timing is perfect! I actually have some definitive information on this topic. On the Sports, there are two size brake master cylinders and two size calipers. The easiest way to identify what you have is to see what size brake master cylinder (BMC) you have. The OEM (Nabco) BMC has the piston diameter cast into the aluminum housing on the bottom towards the end (next to the battery). The standard Gen 1 and Gen 2 Sports use a 15/16" BMC and the 'big brakes' Sport - the larger calipers - uses the 1" BMC. I have both. My Gen 1 little '97 LS and '99 Limited both use the standard 15/16" BMC setup and my '03 Limited uses the 1" with the big calipers. And, I can't tell any difference AT ALL in braking ability. I've towed my 'Bird with my '03 on a car dolly and loaded 14' box trailers with the '97. The only Sport with brakes that are significantly better than the Gen 1's are the ones on the big Sport - which are GM D52 front & Ford Exploder rear so not Mitsubishi. What I can tell you for absolute certainty is that changing from the standard to the larger size BMC and calipers would be a total waste of time and money. I could do the math but the fact of the matter is, the increase in pad area and rotor diameter isn't enough to be worth the change - there just isn't enough difference between the standard and larger setups. If you want a more detailed explanation of the reasoning, let me know. What CAN help is a change to different rotors and pads. If I remember correctly, its still possible to buy StopTech slotted rotors. These won't necessarily help stopping. The point of the slots is to allow gas build up under high heat to escape from between the pad and rotor. This is a good thing - if the gas builds up it behaves like water between the road and your tire. The pad 'hydroplanes' on the rotor. As I said, this may not improve braking and it will only improve things under specific circumstances. They're good for mountain driving where you're into the brakes a lot and good for towing where you're converting a lot of energy to heat stopping. DO NOT get drilled rotors - ever - especially if you're going off road. 'Cryo' - cryogenically frozen - rotors won't help you're breaking directly, either. They last longer because the freezing makes them more durable. The idea here is that using these rotors allows the use of more aggressive brake pads. Very aggressive brake pads will tear the hell out of OEM rotors so that limits what you can do with one of the easiest things you can change that will have the most obvious impact. Which leads to brake pads ... this is the #1 easiest thing you can change that will have the biggest impact on braking. The Sports brakes are not deficient - even the smaller Gen 1 brakes. Both CoSport and I could lock up the brakes on his '98 and my '97 sitting on 35" tires with OEM brake pads, rotors, calipers and BMCs. Obviously the mechanical design isn't an issue so its best to stick to a little tweaking. The idea is to match the operating temperatures and friction coefficients to the type of driving and GVW of the vehicle (including trailer if it doesn't have e-brakes). Wilwood recommended the 'E' pads for vehicles like my big Sport. Heavy (6000+ lbs) but with relatively low brake temperatures experienced while wheeling because of the super low gearing. In that case, you need a very high friction pad that operates well from ambient F to around 500 F. After 500 F isn't real important 'cause it'll never get going fast enough to generate that much heat. Another example is the difference between driving an A/T and a M/T. Typically, a M/T driver spends up to 2/3rds less time in the brakes than an A/T driver. M/T drivers typically use compression braking to slow before using the brakes resulting in overall cooler running brakes. Again, this is a case where a higher friction coefficient at a lower operating temperature is important. Racers run into the same issues. Short track road race generates a LOT of brake heat - higher friction coefficient at a higher operating temp. Long circle track, lower temperatures - higher friction, lower operating temp. This is kind of one of those things that you have to judge for yourself because only you know how and what you drive and it might take a couple tries before you find what you like and what works the best. I can give you a generic recommendation to at least use 'FF' edge code pads, but YMMV. While I don't like how noisy the Wilwood pads are - no, they don't make them for Mitsu - I really like their graphs of pad performance. At least for me, it helped see why Wilwood made the recommendation they had. Your best bet for a street driven heavy Sport with mild off road use is probably something close to the 'E' pad in performance. DO NOT go the other direction or things will get worse. You don't want pads that have to be heated up to work correctly. Not just annoying but dangerous. Edward
Keep in mind I don't have that much to choose from down here, so based on your info I will get me the best pads I can staying within the OEM specs. I don't drive hard too much, but I have noticed that my pads (Haven't replaced them since I got the truck) tend to over heat and smell really fast when I drive hard. Brake response decreases rapidly so I assume the PO got the cheapest pads she could. They still lock up the tires if I slam the brakes and I also tested my bro's Sport with new rotors and pads and it brakes way better than mine so now I know it is not a deficient braking system, it is that mine is shot. Shocks also affect since it tends to raise the a$$ horribly as well.
I will save a bit more so I can get new rotors since mine are warped for sure, it vibrates a lot when braking from speed.
Off roading on this truck is mostly driving on dirt roads and light mud since it is a 2WD with HT rated tires.[/quote] |
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Post by jkdv8 on Mar 15, 2016 12:29:15 GMT -5
They make a good road trip vehicle. Been many of places in mine.
The 3kgt vr4 4 pots are suppose to bolt up. May adversely affect the abs operation however. Also, the master cylinders on the vr4s are 1 1/16 vs the 1 and 15/16" on the sports. Only problem with mix matching calipers and master cylinders (in this case anyways) seems to be pedal feel/travel. DSM guys do it quite often. On a positive note the vr4s are painted red with Mitsubishi on them.
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Post by MonteroSportHonduras on Mar 15, 2016 13:06:09 GMT -5
Mine has no ABS, but getting 3000GT parts here sounds like mission impossible.
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Post by ES_97Sport on Mar 15, 2016 18:05:58 GMT -5
Awesome information as always!! thanks a lot!! Keep in mind I don't have that much to choose from down here, so based on your info I will get me the best pads I can staying within the OEM specs. No worries! Stay away from ceramic and anything that says 'speed', 'race', etc. If you're going to have to run stock rotors, you want 'soft' pads. With brakes you want the pads to wear, not the rotors. Like I said, look for an OEM replacement pad with a FF edge code. Usually those are the 'HD' version of whatever you're looking at. From Bimmerforums.com ... Explanation of D.O.T. Edge Codes Located on all Brake Pads Official D.O.T. Edge Code Coefficient of Friction (C.F.)
@ 250 F and @ 600 F Comments
EE 0.25 to 0.35 both temps 0-25% fade at 600 F possible
EF 0.25 to 0.35 @ 250 F 0.35 to 0.45 @ 600 F 2% to 44% fade at 600 F possible
FF 0.35 to 0.45 both temps 0-22% fade at 600 F possible
GG 0.45 to 0.55 Very Rare
HH 0.55 to 0.65 Carbon/Carbon only. O.K. up to 3000 F where it glows
Notes: These edge codes are located on the edge of the friction material of every brake pad
by government regulation, along with some other codes. The first letter is a grading of the
C.F. at 250 F and the second letter is a grading of the material at 600 F. Each letter grade
can actually have quite a range of C.F. But a difference in the letter grade from medium to hot
temperature could be an indicator of fade. The letters can be in any order. Therefore FE pads
fade when hot, and EF pads would not grab when cold.. Also, you should know that Steel on Steel
has a C.F. of 0.25!! (I just looked up steel friction coefficients online appears to be .6 - but
whatever) So EE pads have only marginally more torque than no pads at all! Therefore FF pads are
usually considered the minimum for a high-performance pad.
I don't know whether pads there will have an edge code. If they're manufactured in the US and sold elsewhere they should. Yep, I'd say that a 'FF' would be a step up. If you can get the slotted rotors - check Summit Racing's web site to see what I'm talking about - and a good set of 'FF' pads and you should be good. I ran Hawk's FF pads with the slotted StopTech rotors for years on the big Sport and they worked very well. Very little rotor wear and zero warping. Edward |
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Post by ES_97Sport on Mar 15, 2016 20:42:15 GMT -5
... The 3kgt vr4 4 pots are suppose to bolt up. May adversely affect the abs operation however. Also, the master cylinders on the vr4s are 1 1/16 vs the 1 and 15/16" on the sports. Only problem with mix matching calipers and master cylinders (in this case anyways) seems to be pedal feel/travel. DSM guys do it quite often. On a positive note the vr4s are painted red with Mitsubishi on them. . Those guys are doing full swaps of matching rotors, calipers and BMCs. The ones that have tried 'mixing and matching' are the ones complaining that stuff don't work right no more. ... unless you know EXACTLY what you're doing.Believe me when I say I'm speaking from experience here. The Brake Bible By Bill "BillaVista" AnsellBillaVista Xcel Brake SpreadsheetNo. Because people can't tell that the operation of the brake system has changed doesn't mean that the only thing that changes is 'pedal feel' and/or 'travel'. In fact, in order to get a change in pedal feel or travel, the brake system performance HAS to change as these are basically just human perceivable side effects. In other words, you end up with more or less pedal travel because you changed BMCs and are now moving more or less hydraulic fluid, or you have a harder or softer 'pedal feel' because you installed larger or smaller volume calipers. Those underlying changes most certainly affect how the brake system performs. An unfortunate truth is that the vast majority of the people on this planet don't have a clue how brakes work and the auto parts industry hasn't done anything to help. Most OEM brake systems are more than adequate for even moderately modified vehicles. Following is an argument I've had with a LOT of people for a lot of years and what's really funny is that some people that you would think would be on the top of the list of who SHOULD understand this don't. Brakes do not stop your car. Sorry, not how it works. Tires stop your car. The brake system converts kinetic energy into heat. The most efficient brake system designed is useless if the tires cannot grip the surface. So I will pose a question: What is the point of installing ginormous rotors and calipers with GG pads on a vehicle with a set of guaranteed 150,000 mile All-Season POS tires with the friction coefficient of a half melted ice cube? Most people run tires that are designed for mileage - long life - not traction - friction coefficient; the capabilities of OEM brake systems outstrip the abilities of street legal tires. Installing ginormous calipers, rotors, pads, etc. won't 'make the car stop faster' because the tires won't be able to maintain traction, it does nothing but unbalance the entire braking system. Street and off road vehicles are not Indy race cars running on a perfectly groomed, paved track. Where you can run non-street legal tires with insane friction coefficients it makes sense to upgrade the capabilities of the brakes to match the tires/track, but it makes NO sense to upgrade the brake system when its impossible to run a tire on a surface that is capable of exceeding the capabilities of the brake system. This generates a problem the other direction with street/trail vehicles. These vehicles are expected drive on different surfaces - sometimes - a lot of the time - multiple surfaces at the same time. A very efficient brake system with matching high friction coefficient tires relies on a good surface to function correctly. If you have that you're all good and if you don't life can get a little 'interesting'. Its possible to have a brake system that is so efficient that it becomes (almost) impossible to NOT lock up one or more tires once it/they loose traction and then it being (almost) impossible to unlock the offending tire(s) without actually removing all pressure from the brake pedal is NOT a good thing. Again. Street vehicles ARE NOT race cars. Too much brake is just as bad as too little. Edward |
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Post by MonteroSportHonduras on Mar 16, 2016 8:55:44 GMT -5
Thanks a lot to all for your feedback!
I will get back once I can get new brakes to post the results.
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Post by ES_97Sport on Mar 16, 2016 13:19:32 GMT -5
Thanks a lot to all for your feedback! I will get back once I can get new brakes to post the results. If you can, stop by a local auto parts store and have them bring you out a box of pads. Maybe a couple boxes of different brands and check to see if they have edge codes. That will make your life a lot simpler. Always rely on the numbers, not peoples opinions ESPECIALLY where brake pads are concerned. Besides vehicles differing, everyone's driving style is different from everyone else's so what works for one may not work so well for someone else. Edward |
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Post by Naeos_Valkarian on Mar 16, 2016 13:20:05 GMT -5
"What is the point of installing ginormous rotors and calipers with GG pads on a vehicle with a set of guaranteed 150,000 mile All-Season POS tires with the friction coefficient of a half melted ice cube?" Haha, this quote is going in my sig.  On another note I just completed my first long trip in my Montero too, traveled roughly 130miles up to my dads then back again with a detour due to flood waters that put an additional 200ish miles to my trip. Pretty much non stop 80Mph on the way back and I can say my Monty did exceptionally well. I was getting roughly 80miles per quarter of a tank (dunno how many gallons that is  ), I thought it was rather decent though. |
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Post by MonteroSportHonduras on Mar 16, 2016 15:43:05 GMT -5
The fact that I spent a full tank for the 200 mile go and 200 mile back trips has me fairly happy. |
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Post by jkdv8 on Mar 16, 2016 18:47:35 GMT -5
... The 3kgt vr4 4 pots are suppose to bolt up. May adversely affect the abs operation however. Also, the master cylinders on the vr4s are 1 1/16 vs the 1 and 15/16" on the sports. Only problem with mix matching calipers and master cylinders (in this case anyways) seems to be pedal feel/travel. DSM guys do it quite often. On a positive note the vr4s are painted red with Mitsubishi on them. . Those guys are doing full swaps of matching rotors, calipers and BMCs. The ones that have tried 'mixing and matching' are the ones complaining that stuff don't work right no more. ... unless you know EXACTLY what you're doing.Believe me when I say I'm speaking from experience here. The Brake Bible By Bill "BillaVista" AnsellBillaVista Xcel Brake SpreadsheetNo. Because people can't tell that the operation of the brake system has changed doesn't mean that the only thing that changes is 'pedal feel' and/or 'travel'. In fact, in order to get a change in pedal feel or travel, the brake system performance HAS to change as these are basically just human perceivable side effects. In other words, you end up with more or less pedal travel because you changed BMCs and are now moving more or less hydraulic fluid, or you have a harder or softer 'pedal feel' because you installed larger or smaller volume calipers. Those underlying changes most certainly affect how the brake system performs. An unfortunate truth is that the vast majority of the people on this planet don't have a clue how brakes work and the auto parts industry hasn't done anything to help. Most OEM brake systems are more than adequate for even moderately modified vehicles. Following is an argument I've had with a LOT of people for a lot of years and what's really funny is that some people that you would think would be on the top of the list of who SHOULD understand this don't. Brakes do not stop your car. Sorry, not how it works. Tires stop your car. The brake system converts kinetic energy into heat. The most efficient brake system designed is useless if the tires cannot grip the surface. So I will pose a question: What is the point of installing ginormous rotors and calipers with GG pads on a vehicle with a set of guaranteed 150,000 mile All-Season POS tires with the friction coefficient of a half melted ice cube? Most people run tires that are designed for mileage - long life - not traction - friction coefficient; the capabilities of OEM brake systems outstrip the abilities of street legal tires. Installing ginormous calipers, rotors, pads, etc. won't 'make the car stop faster' because the tires won't be able to maintain traction, it does nothing but unbalance the entire braking system. Street and off road vehicles are not Indy race cars running on a perfectly groomed, paved track. Where you can run non-street legal tires with insane friction coefficients it makes sense to upgrade the capabilities of the brakes to match the tires/track, but it makes NO sense to upgrade the brake system when its impossible to run a tire on a surface that is capable of exceeding the capabilities of the brake system. This generates a problem the other direction with street/trail vehicles. These vehicles are expected drive on different surfaces - sometimes - a lot of the time - multiple surfaces at the same time. A very efficient brake system with matching high friction coefficient tires relies on a good surface to function correctly. If you have that you're all good and if you don't life can get a little 'interesting'. Its possible to have a brake system that is so efficient that it becomes (almost) impossible to NOT lock up one or more tires once it/they loose traction and then it being (almost) impossible to unlock the offending tire(s) without actually removing all pressure from the brake pedal is NOT a good thing. Again. Street vehicles ARE NOT race cars. Too much brake is just as bad as too little. Edward All very good points Ed. There are a few from different websites that didn't do a complete swap. I do remember one guy did it to his girlfriends car. But yea, we are not building race cars or rocket ships here however a little better bite wouldn't hurt regardless. It would also help with the warped rotors and seized calipers. I think the question isn't are the brakes sufficient but are they overburdened which appears to be the case. |
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Post by ES_97Sport on Mar 21, 2016 20:10:16 GMT -5
... There are a few from different websites that didn't do a complete swap. I do remember one guy did it to his girlfriends car. Yea, I read a bunch of those. Its not an impossible task. If you know how everything works. The issue is that everything in the brake system works together. Its just a hydraulic system - its not earth shatteringly complicated but its not like changing an air filter, either. If you get a chance pull Bill's spreadsheet down and plug in the numbers from your Sport. The pedal ratio is 4 and the booster ratio is 7 for our Sports and the Montero. You can play with the numbers and see how things are affected. Very educational. After driving my big Sport with the new brakes and driving my stock '97 and '03, I can agree that a little wouldn't hurt. Rotors are heat sinks. Tires stop the vehicle, the brake system just converts kinetic energy to heat. Improving the efficiency of the brake system means that the brake system generates more heat. Excluding poorly designed and/or poor materials and/or poor maintenance, heat is what causes issues like warped rotors and fried calipers. Increasing the amount of heat generated will actually make things worse not better. In order to lower the operating temperature of the brake assembly, you need to increase the cooling efficiency of the brake assembly. Vented instead of solid rotors, better designed vented rotors, external ducted brake cooling. Increasing the mass of the rotor helps. For example, the temperature rise of my 11.9" disks is 301F degrees. With the 12.5" HD rotors its 197F degrees. That's for a 19.12 lb rotor vs. a 35.5 lb rotor. Good if you are in the brakes a lot or the occasional 'panic stop'. Starting at 100 degree brake temperature, brake temperature after hard stop ... Dia - Weight - Temp
11" - 12 lb - 490F
11.9" - 19.12 lb - 401F
12.5" - 35.5 lb - 297FChanging physical caliper sizes has a negligible affect. Calipers are not intended to absorb generated heat like the rotors and in fact the calipers should stay as cool as possible to prevent issues with boiling the bake fluid. How to interpret the following ... The Required Brake Torque is how many inch pounds it takes to lock the tires. The Calculated Brake Torque is how many inch pounds are actually being generated. Actual should be a little more (a few %) than Required. Hydraulic Pressure is the pressure in PSI require to generate Brake Torque. There is a maximum PSI for hydraulic pressure and in general it should be kept as low as practical. Calipers have a maximum pressure rating which should never be exceeded but in addition the higher the pressure, the more the calipers flex which introduces other issues. Think of the Hydraulic Ratio as the 'pedal feel'. "The higher the hydraulic ratio, the less pedal effort required and the longer the pedal travel. The lower the ratio, the more pedal effort required and the shorter the pedal travel." On to it ... Performance ... changing the OEM calipers to a 'larger' size - 'larger' being defined as more piston area - isn't really going to get you anything. This is why -- on our brakes systems we appear to have a pedal ratio of about 13:1. That's about where you want to end up when the brake system is complete. In English, it means that the 'pedal feel' will be similar to OEM. With a 11.88" rotors, 2" calipers and a 1 1/16" BMC I have a ratio of 14:1 and 53,960 in lbs of calculated brake torque. If I change to a 3.15" caliper with a 1 1/4" BMC I have a ratio of 13:1 and 48,355 in lbs of calculated brake torque. The required brake torque is 49,229 in lbs, so you can see that the 3.15" calipers actually result in an "underpowered" brake system. If I change rotor diameter ... The 11.88" rotors, 2" calipers and 1 1/16" BMC has a 14:1 ratio. The calculated brake torque is 53,960 in lbs. If I change to 12.5" rotor with the same calipers and a 1 1/8" BMC, calculated brake torque drops to 48,128 in lbs and the ratio drops to 13:1. The brakes are again 'underpowered'. So just changing rotors doesn't do anything good either. If I change rotors AND calipers ... If I change to the 12.5" rotors with the 3.15" calipers and 1.25" BMC, the ratios is 13:1, the calculated brake torque is 49,790 in lbs. What you're getting here isn't a huge increase in 'braking'. Most of the benefit is in the larger rotors as noted above in heat management and a decrease in the necessary hydraulic pressure. Now, what if we change the friction coefficient on the pads ... Back to my existing setup of 11.88" rotors, 2" calipers and 1 1/16" BMC. I'm using .46 as my friction coefficient based on projected temperature operating range. The required hydraulic pressure is 1874 PSI, actual hydraulic pressure produced 2054 PSI, the calculated brake torque is 53,960 in lbs and the ratio is 14:1. If I change the friction coefficient to .55, the bottom end of an HH pad, the required hydraulic pressure drops to 1567 PSI and the brake torque goes up to 64,518 in lbs. If I change the friction coefficient to the high end of a EE pad which is .35, the hydraulic pressure jumps to 2463 PSI and the calculated brake torque drops to 41,057 in lbs. You can see that just a friction coefficient change by using different pads can make a pretty dramatic difference as demonstrated by the differences in calculated brake torque. As a side note, the third example results in extremely poor to virtually non-existent braking. This would fit in the 'extremely unsafe' category. The second example should use a 1 1/8" BMC which drops the calculated brake torque to 57,544 and the actual hydraulic pressure produced to 1832 PSI and the ratio to 13:1. So, you can see that even pad changes are not a 'standalone' thing. So, this is why I can't see that there's a point in attempting to retrofit larger rotors and calipers. If one was doing tons of towing (no pun intended) I could maybe see a benefit but that's the wrong application for the wrong vehicle and IMHO the benefit wouldn't be worth the effort. The example I gave above with the 12.5" rotor is for a Dana 60 - that is a HUGE hunk of metal @ almost TWICE the weight of my D44 rotors. There is nothing even close to that in the Mitsu world short of commercial. As for brake 'performance', I do believe that changing pads is a worth while effort and along with higher quality replacement rotors. Something with a coefficient of .45 in the operating range of the vehicle would be nice. But retrofitting bigger rotors and calipers? No. I just can't see the point. There just isn't enough bang for the buck there. I have two Gen 1's with the stock brakes and a Gen 2 with the larger brakes and honestly, I can't tell the difference. Neither one of them stops any different and neither have any component issues. I ran the big Sport before the SAS with 33" M/Ts on the OEM brakes for years. I had to change pads once and never had to change the rotors. Braking was nowhere near what it is now, but I still didn't have any issues getting it to stop either on the street or trail. Now, if I were insane and stupid and were going to run 37"s or something larger on a OEM Sport, then going to larger rotors would be a big benefit. By larger, I mean 13-14" rotors, because that's what it would take to actually make the difference worthwhile. Edward |
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Post by jkdv8 on Mar 21, 2016 22:01:48 GMT -5
Lots of good info there Edward.
Yea I was browsing the other day and the rotors are quite a bit larger on the vr4 compared to the sport. So unless there is a rotor from something else that could be used it would do any good.
The goal with this however would be to more or less improve brake fade from the "overburdened" issues I spoke of where frequent stops even in non emergency situations would be greatly improved. The temps here in Atlanta can breach 100 which adversely affects the situation. All the experts seem to say on paper that their is no difference in braking performance when going from 2 pot to 4 pot calipers but, everyone that has done it ends up with better braking performance all around. It does make sense where you have 4 pistons pushing against the rotor rather than two is like the two heads are better than one saying. Also the diameter of the pistons (not sure the size on either/relative to bmc bore Im sure ) plays a large part in this but yea, without the larger rotor to help dissipate heat it wouldn't do any good. They also say that whenever you are increasing the size of the wheel and or tire you should upgrade to a bigger brake setup. One of the biggies they tell people when going from a stock 15/16/17" wheel to 22/24" and such. Albeit that changing the wheel size sometimes increases the rotating mass of the wheel/tire package more so than increasing the tire size, it still increases sometimes dramatically. Some of these aftermarket wheels are as light as a feather sometimes much more so than the tire going on it. I guess the point being that real world testing scenarios are usually a better way of determining the outcome of something rather than just relying on what is written on a sheet of paper. I'm sure you know this all to well.
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I've towed my 'Bird with my '03 on a car dolly and loaded 14' box trailers with the '97. The only Sport with brakes that are significantly better than the Gen 1's are the ones on the big Sport - which are GM D52 front & Ford Exploder rear so not Mitsubishi. 
), I thought it was rather decent though.