Montero Sport Transmission Fluid change
|
Post by puddy on Jul 10, 2007 16:51:58 GMT -5
A Mobil rep will always tell you their oil is better and yes I have done my homework. You are partly correct on how the transmission works/built
Joel ( moderator on this site) who used to work as a top mechanic for Mitsubishi always told us always use Mitsubishi transmission fluid and always use a Mitsubishi oil filters.
Does your Mobil rep work as a Mitsubishi mechanic?
Puddy ps some Mobil reps tells use to use 5/10w synthetic engine oil in the transmission and tell use it will run for ever without any wear
|
|
zio
Newbie
Posts: 8
|
Post by zio on Oct 3, 2007 16:15:57 GMT -5
New member... driven to register & post by this thread. I've had the opportunity to witnes some truly genius discussions on automotive oils, specifically oils for transmissions/gear cases. And ever since, one of my biggest pet peeves has been folks spewing opinions as fact, or stating something as fact without providing the actual data. Regarding ATF, its different types and applications, here are some excerpts from some uber-smart type dudes. The discussions are in regards to ATF being used in a dirt-bike gearbox as opposed to gear oil, but there's still a lot of good info to be learned: dirtrider.net/forums3/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5269 - First off, ALL transmission fluids have friction modifiers in them. The old Type F fluid uses a modifier that increases the static coefficient of friction to a higher value then the dynamic coefficient of friction. The newer Dexron and Mercon fluids have a static coefficient of friction that is lower then the dynamic coefficient of friction. What this in effect does, is allow the Dexron/Mercon fluid transmissions to slip more and engage more slowly and smoothly, while the Ford transmissions shift quicker with a faster lockup. The old Ford transmissions (C-4, C-6) were designed with a smaller clutch area then their GM Hydramatic counter parts. The newer Ford transmissions changed to the GM smooth slow shift theory with the AOD series and maybe some of the older weird ones (FMX?). What this means for us is that the Type F fluids will allow our clutches to hold tighter with the same clamping pressure then with an ATF or even with a motor oil. B+M has always recommended at least type F fluid for any of their transmissions, for precisely these faster, harder shifting properties and the Trick Shift also uses these friction modifiers.
...To put it in perspective, Ford's old Type F fluid is not friction modified which means that it is not "slippery" and yields relatively harsh shifts. DEXRON-III, MERCON and the new MERCON V fluids are friction modified to provide smoother shifts. When B&M came to market there Trick Shift it was geared towards the drag racing community to get firmer and harsher shifts while racing to lower there ET on the strip. On the other hand, Chrysler's 7176 fluid (also known as ATF+2) is highly friction modified in comparison to the other ATFs. But thats a whole other story with 7176 ATF causing problems....dirtrider.net/forums3/showthread.php?t=5288 - It is true that in the typical SAE classification tests (ASTM D 445, kinematic viscosity at 100 degrees C) that gear oils and engine oils exhibit similar viscosities, these conditions are not representative of a real world engine/gearbox environment. A much better test that simulates more closely a real engine/gear environment is a high temperature/high shear test (HT/HS such as ASTM D 4683 or 4741 at 150 degrees C in high shear). Standard multi-grade engine oil typically is composed primarily of a base stock that is the viscosity of the lower number, like the 10 in 10W-40, and polymers are added to increase the viscosity to the higher 40 weight at 100 degrees C. Under high shear conditions, such as in gears or in bearings the polymers behave in a non-Newtonian fashion and the oil exhibits a viscosity somewhere between the low and high numbers, the 10W-40 will act like a 20 weight. The higher the temperature and the higher the shear the low the exhibited viscosity. Gear oils use a heavier and higher viscosity base stock, and gear oils show much less viscosity drop in the HT/HS test and predictably perform better in field testing in gearboxes. However like I have stated before I don’t feel the loads experienced in a motorcycle gearbox necessarily warrant a heavy gear oil over a lighter fluid like engine oil or even ATF. Rich might be looking into the type of loads that our gears are seeing, and with that info we can determine how heavy an oil we need to run, but with most manufacturers recommending a multi-grade engine oil, most of the heavy thinking has already been done for us.
One other thing: Friction Modifiers are the additives that bond to the surface of flywheel and clutch disc. Friction modifiers are typically long chain organic acids that bond in a polar fashion to a metallic surface. The organic chain side of the molecule stands off of the surface and holds a layer of oil. These additives protect when the oil wedge is lost by keeping that bit of oil in place. Extreme pressure additives contain phosphorus, sulfur and chlorine. The way these work is that when the oil film is over loaded and there is actual metal to metal contact, the additives weld themselves to the high spots (asperities) that are hitting together. The additive welded to the metal is quite weak and breaks off easily. This causes wear, but it makes the surface more smooth and “broken in”.
This once again is a simplification of a pretty complex topic, but the more discussion and understanding the better.Regarding the mfr's recommendation of using only SPIII ATF fluid: They (Mitsu) designed/engineered the transmission themselves, then formulated a proprietary ATF for their transmissions. The base stock that provides all the lubrication/protection for the gears is likely the same as most all similar ATF's, the difference is in the modifiers added for the seals/clutches, etc. I tried to find info on who actually makes the tranny in Montero Sports, but couldn't find it. There are only a few companies in the world who supply OEM transmissions. But it would be interesting to find out exactly what parts/materials are used that require this special ATF fluid. Amsoil, for example, claims to have an alternative to SPIII. But it's just a "universal" ATF, designed to work in all sorts of trannies. I'm sure they make a damn fine product, and it will probably work fine in your Mitsubishi tranny over the short-term. It's the long-term effects on those magical seals/clutch surfaces that I worry about. Again, read above Until Mitsubishi issues SP-III licenses to duplicate their proprietary forumula (I don't think they have yet), the only sources for SP-III fluid will remain Hyundai, KIA, and Mitsubishi dealers. Magneson-Moss only covers aftermarket parts and fluids for which there are application-specific equivalents. As consumers, we are protected under the Magneson-Moss Warranty Act that ammended Federal Trade Commission provisions to prevent abuse by manufacturers and sellers. Magneson-Moss only covers aftermarket parts and fluids for which there are application-specific equivalents. There was a time when some auto manufacturers (notably, Ford and GM) did require dealer service to maintain warranty rights until Congress stepped in. As a sidenote, Chrysler has for some time (~1989) specified their own proprietary fluid, "ATF+4" for use in that company's ATs. And, like SP-III, ATF+4 was only available from their dealerships - and fairly pricey at that. Back in September 2005, Chrysler started licensing the formula to major and independent refiners and blenders for distribution through the normal retail channels. I think that Chrysler's AT+4 is supposed to be similar to the SPIII, but ATF+4 is not sanctioned as an equivalent for SP-III. If in fact it is close enough, once your warranty period is over I'd say go for it. And finally, I'll add a personal observation re: different types of lubrication fluids in a wet-clutch type application... I've been riding dirtbikes for years. Dirtbike gearboxes require very frequent oil changes, typically once every two rides. Also, the "connection" between rider and bike is so much more intimate compared to a car. Honestly, I can tell a difference in the way my bike shifts when using Chevron Delo 400 versus Mobil 1 15w-30. And the difference between an automotive engine oil and a Type F atf is even more pronounced.
|
|
|
Post by brushout on Sept 3, 2011 20:57:11 GMT -5
Boy do I feel like a boob. I have had my Montero Sport since new in 2000, now at 134,000 miles. I have never touched the transmission other than the dipstick to make sure it still has fluid.
Funny thing is that I have not "Changed" the motor oil in three years. It leaks so bad, I just keep adding more, about a quart a month. I figure it is like a full flush every four months.
Back to the transmission, I think I will change it tomorrow.
|
|
|
Post by botchagalou on Sept 4, 2011 9:24:32 GMT -5
Motor oil should be changed every 3000 unless you like running dirty oil.
As said time and time again on the boards, 2000 and later MS's use SPIII ONLY!!! And when you start hearing rubbing noises its time to stop procrastinating and have it flushed. 16 qts will assure machine is clean, if mechanic knows how to clean it first of other ATF. A flush will get all the old fluid and remnants out. If it has never been done, do it NOW and again in about 30,000 mi. A new tranny with labor and the rest is well over $2000. 100,000+ is alot of miles on fluid.
|
|
|
Post by brushout on Sept 4, 2011 16:07:59 GMT -5
Well you all have inspired me to do some maintenance on my MS. I changed the transmission fluid today and replace it with 3 quarts of CASTROL IMPORT MULTIVEHICLE AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION FLUID. I also replaced the leaky valve cover caskets. I have driven the vehicle for a 50 mile test ride. No odd sound and the transmission shifts smooth (actually smoother than before). I will let you know how it goes in a few hundred miles. www.castrol.com/castrol/sectiongenericarticle.do?categoryId=9012226&contentId=7028224
|
|
|
Post by botchagalou on Sept 4, 2011 16:14:19 GMT -5
YOU HAVE A 2001 MS WHICH ONLY REPEAT ONLY TAKES SPIII. ALSO YOU CANNOT MIX BRANDS!!!
I wish you luck! I would advise pricing SPIII from KIA dealers (SAME BUT CHEAPER DEALER PRICING) get 16 quarts and have it flushed. NEVER EVER MIX TYPES!!!!
|
|
|
Post by brushout on Sept 4, 2011 16:33:20 GMT -5
I have a 2000 MS
And Castrol Import SP III has got to be better than Mitsubishi Diamond SPIII with 100,000+ miles on it.
Lets call it research and development.
|
|
|
Post by brushout on Sept 4, 2011 22:45:56 GMT -5
Riddle me this batman!
If the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act Title 15, United States Code, Section 2302 states that Under this federal statute, a manufacturer who issues a warranty on your motor vehicle is prohibited from requiring you to use a service or maintenance item, unless such item is provided, free of charge.
If this is the case with vehicles under warranty, then how can you justify saying that one MUST use Mitsibishi Diamond SP III?
By the way Castrol Import is SPIII.
I understand the whole using the wrong fluid thing. Such as using DEXRON®–VI in your MS is WRONG.
Castrol Import is NOT wrong.
|
|
|
Post by dzuwel on Sept 5, 2011 7:48:17 GMT -5
its your car.....its your call....but let us know how that castrol works in yours for several miles, its good to have other brands as back up...
|
|
|
Post by brushout on Sept 5, 2011 9:41:53 GMT -5
@ dzuwel Oh absolutely, at this point I am amazed the vehicle has even lasted this long. Like I said we will call it "research and development".
I will repost the results in a few months.
Other SP III fluids out there are: Valvoline MaxLife® DEX/MERC ATF Royal Purple Max ATF
From looking at the Mobile One website they do NOT make an SP III fluid. Even the synthetic stuff is not SP III.
|
|
|
Post by redcentinela on Sept 5, 2011 9:50:40 GMT -5
as long as the oil complies with manufacturer's specs, you are good to go. Mine Monty is a 1999 model with Aisin tranny and requires ATF 3. Of course, try to buy a good oil that complies with at least ATF 3 if it is your case. People that say that you must use Mitsubishi oil only is way wrong. that only applies when your Monty comes with a Mitsubishi made tranny that uses the so called Diamond Oil, not the case of the Aisin tranny.
Regarding the complete flush, that is done by loosening one of the tranny oil hoses that go to the radiator, can't recall which one, they are only two, turn on engine only for ONE MINUTE, that will suffice to flush the tranny as much as possible, install that hose back again and refill with proper fluid. That is what the service manual states.
|
|
|
Post by CoreyJ on Sept 5, 2011 11:12:57 GMT -5
This is an issue that has interested me since I bought my 99 LS two years ago. I live in an area that has no Mitsu dealers (closest is about 150 miles away). Seems to me that there are two types of Montero drivers - the super interested, almost fanatical ones (like all of us) and the average SUV driver that likes the truck but doesn't know every detail and recommendation for it's service.
My honest question is this: are there tons of monties with dead and ruined transmissions caused by these average owners just using any ATF that says that it replaces Diamond SP-III? I think that the average driver wouldn't even know that you MUST use oem sp-III (and judging by the posts that I read here, many mechanics as well).
Well, I have used Castrol import ATF since owning my LS and so far so good. I'm interested in hearing from those of you who are doing the same over time to see what happens.
Thanks for the interesting conversation!
|
|
|
Post by buggzyy on Sept 5, 2011 11:16:53 GMT -5
Riddle me this batman! If the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act Title 15, United States Code, Section 2302 states that Under this federal statute, a manufacturer who issues a warranty on your motor vehicle is prohibited from requiring you to use a service or maintenance item, unless such item is provided, free of charge. If this is the case with vehicles under warranty, then how can you justify saying that one MUST use Mitsibishi Diamond SP III? By the way Castrol Import is SPIII. I understand the whole using the wrong fluid thing. Such as using DEXRON®–VI in your MS is WRONG. Castrol Import is NOT wrong. I read through the written law that you had stated but cannot find anything written about what you had stated regarding supplying a maintenance item for free. I have read through it several times maybe I missed it. As for choosing the correct fluid for your vehicle Its always best to follow what the manufacture has recommended. being this I did some research on SPIII which is produced by (as far as I know) Nippon oil. and found the product properties listed here www.eneos.us/product/10. and compared with some others and found they all differ is some way or another. This is why SPIII is recommended because it possesses specific properties which allow the transmission to perform a specific way. I am not saying one is better than the other just that for your transmission to perform as intended then use the recommended fluid.
|
|
|
Post by brushout on Sept 5, 2011 12:28:15 GMT -5
Section (c) Prohibition on conditions for written or implied warranty; waiver by Commission No warrantor of a consumer product may condition his written or implied warranty of such product on the consumer's using, in connection with such product, any article or service (other than article or service provided without charge under the terms of the warranty) which is identified by brand, trade, or corporate name.
Not to be an azz, but "without charge" means FREE.
SP III is what is recommended and I don't think anyone here is disputing that. What is being disputed is the fact that some think it absolutely has to be Mitsubishi Diamond, when several companies produce SP III fluids.
I may be just talking out my butt right now, I just drove the vehicle anther 15 miles and could not be happier with the shifting. This may abruptly change in the near future, I will definitely keep you posted.
|
|
|
Post by bdmontero on Sept 5, 2011 23:00:59 GMT -5
Great another topic on tranny fluid.lol. SPIII fluid has specific modifiers and friction additives etc that matches the 99 and newer mitsubishi and kia transmissions to perfection. The 97-98 aisin trannys aren't as picky but I put SPIII in anyway. You WILL eventually have some kind of trouble with that tranny some day.
|
|
|