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Post by jay4x4 on Jun 1, 2014 11:59:59 GMT -5
Sounds like its a epidemic, I actually tried to do a comparison between the sport, xterra , and the FJ, putting aftermarket support aside, they really are very similar IFS/SRA and similar angles and wheelbase. I will say that the FJ has a "off road" look to it and I think that is what people want not really giving a damn about anything else. I find it funny that you mention the sport having terrible visibility. I found it to be pretty damn good, but I have heard about the FJ being a blind box.
Yes about every person I've seen on a trail is doesn't have any of that stuff, even on my last trip out all I saw were two stock YJs. Its actually really interesting because I've always seen it but never put two and two together.. we don't have much trees or anything to rip things off but most of it is from weird angles that scrap the bumper/ rip it off. I have crazy amount of pinstripes from getting lost and ending up in a damn ATV trail once. Its was a super small OHV park 1.5 square trails miles lol mostly for dirt bikes and such, but they have 4x4 trails. Their is a black diamond and a double red diamond too. oh and I totally understand the business point in the bumper deal so no need to worry about coming off as the man lol.
Not really bashing prerunners lol. I live in the prerunner capital. I've seen tons of fully build beasts that get used. After taking my buddy out on his first real off road trip (really just a green circle) or bad fire road if you will. he seems to be getting a good idea of what he needs. he was telling me about getting a regear and locker now so that's good. I must say his truck doesn't look bad, seemed like plenty of tire even with a 17" wheel. He got bilstein 5100s but what I found was weird is that they put him on blocks in the rear. so for mickey Thompson ATZ 35x12.5x17, Gear 17" wheels, bilstein 5100s, not sure how they lifted the front but saw some new arms and such, and alignment and install was $5000
funny you should mention seeing a Toyota like that. I recently went on vacation to Maui, where I'm originally from, and all I saw were huge older Toyotas. Massive lifts and body lifts on top of that with huge wheel spacers. I can almost bet they were on stock drivetrain too.
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Post by ES_97Sport on Jun 3, 2014 13:23:20 GMT -5
Sounds like its a epidemic, I actually tried to do a comparison between the sport, xterra , and the FJ, putting aftermarket support aside, they really are very similar IFS/SRA and similar angles and wheelbase. I will say that the FJ has a "off road" look to it and I think that is what people want not really giving a damn about anything else. I find it funny that you mention the sport having terrible visibility. I found it to be pretty damn good, but I have heard about the FJ being a blind box.[/p No, there's not too much difference. State height restrictions limit clearance to a maximum of n if you wish to sell your product in whatever state and all manufacturers have to comply with that. Each class of vehicle irrespective of manufacturer pretty much has the same wheel base and width. So, the only things that realy change are the approach and departure angle which is dependent on the body style and to some extent break-over which is only affected by what might be hanging off the bottom. So, yea, everything is pretty much the same. Yes, 99% is looks. Like I've told the guys on the Wire for years, the group that actually uses vehicles for off road use - I do not mean the bunch that drives to the trail head to dump off their bicycles - is a VERY small percentage of the buying population. Its not possible to support a corporation the size of GM, Ford or Toyota on that size market. So, you have to market to the wannabe crowd - which is a VERY BIG group. The compromise is to make a vehicle that LOOKS like a monster off road machine while still maintaining actual off road capability. If you can satisfy the second without driving up the costs and pissing off the first, you win. Toy tried to do this with the FJ and for the most part they've succeeded. I say for the most part because they failed miserably with the visibility aspect. It looks cool from the outside which makes people buy it, but functionally its a failure. Visibility in an off road vehicle is critical. That is probably the only area where there is no such thing as too much. But, they've accomplished their goal of selling tons of them, so .... The Sport isn't near as bad as the FJ but its not great. Its fine - more or less - on the road, but the short glass is a problem. The windshield is too short and that doesn't work well with the long nose. The side glass is too short and too small. The more you lift a Sport, the more obvious the problem and the more dramatic the difference. Another argument against massive lifts on vehicles. The further up you go the harder it is to see down around the vehicle. Yep, most people don't put two and two together until they tear something off. Not saying everything on the outside of a vehicle is useless junk - somethings are necessary like CB antennas and I wouldn't mind a snorkel occasionally out in UT to get my air cleaner up out of the dust and heat - but the reality is anything outside the body is a liability. Yea, I had one of those. My X took me into Beef Basin not too long after we were married. We were completely lost and it was getting late. One of the first times we went out to Moab. For those unfamiliar with Beef Basin - its in the middle of BFE nowhere south of Needles. Nothing there but the random cow, bear and tamarisk. We ended up on a trail where the tamarisk slowly just kept closing in until it was up against the big Sport on both sides. No way to turn around so we had to back out. So, I ended up with pin-striping going in and reverse pin-striping backing back out. Good thing I don't have anything outside or that would have scraped everything off. Needless to say, I pretty much stopped taking directions from my X after that. Yep, seen that. Not a very good idea, but its common. The further the spring pad is away from the axle tube, the more leverage there will be which is going to beat the crap out of his springs. Its called axle wrap - its where the spring is actually bent into an S shape by the rotation of the axle housing. This is what is known as a 'BAD THING' and seriously decreases the life span of the springs. And the more weight you carry, the lower the gearing, bigger tires, the stickier the terrain, the worse the problem. (this is actually on my list after breaking my 5th or 6th set of springs last year) Especially if he doesn't drop the gearing. Its still going to do that with the bigger tires, but the gears will help. There are three fixes. Different springs and no blocks. A three or four link with coil-overs. Or a torque bar (arm). Basically its a ladder bar that attaches to the axle and the frame and keeps the axle housing from rotating when you step on or let off the gas. The first is ok, but affects articulation. Its relatively cheap but very easy. The second is the 100% absolute fix but its expensive - relatively speaking; its not $5000 - and there's a little more maintenance but comes with lots of other benefits. The torque arm is effective but has the drawback of being more complicated than replacing the springs and can in some instances affect ground clearance. Its cheaper than the springs in most cases, won't affect articulation when done right and will be ALMOST as effective as the 3/4-link. Its not as cool as a 3/4-link but its almost a fix and forget project - there's almost NO maintenance. If he already does't know, tell him to figure out what tire size it came with and the stock gearing and then figure the new tire size and what new gearing is required to get back to that ratio. That'll keep his computer happy and won't trash his gas mileage. There's a calculator on my site as well as others for figuring out your gearing at the at the dirt. Front's easy on a Toy. Yea, well, a off road vehicle that looks like a stock vehicle isn't very impressive to one's friends. Its understandable in mud bog vehicles, but otherwise it's pretty silly. We still have a few roaming around here. Guy pulled up next to me this morning in an old '80s Toy PU sitting on 30" worn out all seasons with about 10-12 inches more height than my big Sport. Guy could barely get in and out. Ridiculous. Edward
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Post by jay4x4 on Aug 21, 2014 0:06:07 GMT -5
So it has been a while, Had lots going on and became pretty too busy to hop on the boards. I have some time freeing up right now so thought I would chime back in with a few things new and a few questions I had.
1.Recently took a trip a 456 miles trip in which seemed to yield better (2)mpg and I was carrying more weight in the vehicle, Only thing I had done was change from 5w-40 to 5w-30 and cleaned out MAF sensor. Not the craziest change but more than welcomed for what was done.
2.Currently have a friend working on designs for skid plates and sliders. This might but a strange question as maybe its never happened before, but just had me wondering... What kind of effect does armor have with insurance? In the event of an accident, whether it be yours or their fault, could something like that be used against you in a law suit? This might sound stupid, sorry don't know much about "law", but gezz you never know nowadays. You see people going to jail for shooting an intruder in their home, illegal immigrants getting a slap on the wrist for manslaughter, etc etc. Point being is I have seen some strange things, Like the live-in nanny who refused to leave. Last I heard she was in the right legally but we all know it was a con pretty much... Stuff like that.
3. I am on a quest to save for a powertank, but came across cleaning my garage a 5 gal air tank. I was thinking about picking up a decent compressor (superflo) and hook up a cheap OBA system. This would just be to air up tires faster, but still would get a powertank for air tools and such, heard it can be used for welding somehow (maybe someone yanking my chain lol). I just thought it would be nice to save the precious CO2 for emergency or a more important task and use the "free" air for tires or even just back up. How does this sound? I have the space (will discuss later)
4.Was waiting to get other things done first but as seen in my other post I ran into a deal and got a CB set up. Uniden Bearcat 980SSB with a Wilson "lil Will" magnetic mount.
5. Redid my whole "storage" setup up, if you want to call it that. I was able to get pretty much everything into 2 "bug out" backpacks. One has my emergency gear such as; First Aid, flashlights, batteries, and a bunch of other stuff but just like enough to survive for a few days in the event of a emergency. Other bag has recovery gear, that's pretty much it. any small misc items were placed into the built in storage compartments in the cargo area.
hmmm Their were some other things I wanted to discuss but they escape me at the moment. Maybe as the they will come to me later.
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Post by ES_97Sport on Aug 28, 2014 19:28:37 GMT -5
So it has been a while, Had lots going on and became pretty too busy to hop on the boards. I have some time freeing up right now so thought I would chime back in with a few things new and a few questions I had. Yea, hear you there. Work, house, and rebuilding the big Sport. Freshened drive shafts, new front CM axle shafts, new stabilizer and new 1 ton drag link. Still chasing a really nasty vibration above 55. That is a good question. I've been up and down this with insurance companies for years. I've stopped just short of taking this to counsel. We have one of the top five in the US on retainer so they'd be able to answer the question I'm sure but it wouldn't be a cheap answer. What I've dug out on my own goes like this ... Anyone can sue anyone else for anything. I mean that literally. Whether they'd be successful is another question. What they sue your for and what comes up in the suit will be used to convince a judge or jury one way or the other. Law suits are interesting animals. A common misconception in a jury trial is that decisions are based on facts, which is untrue. They're based on perception. This is not my opinion - this is directly from our counsel. Facts frequently aren't what sways a jury. Which is where it gets sticky for people modifying vehicles. A good law team will try to convince the jury that irrespective of facts, you're an evil, dangerous person with no consideration for the common good and the safety of others - because you're screwing with an obviously perfect and safe vehicle and if you just hadn't touched it everyone would be just fine. It wouldn't matter if you were an engineer with decades of experience or even if the modifications even contributed - if they can convince the jury that nothing would have happened if you didn't touch anything, its over. Facts be damned. The facts of the mater are, if you modify a vehicle you are going to have a huge mountain to surmount just to get to even footing with the other side. That is just the way it is and has really always been. Guilty until proven innocent is a bad place to be but that pretty much is where we're at. Things like armor are probably not going to come up in a normal accident. If there's an injury or death on the other side, EVERYTHING will come up. You would not want me as a lawyer for the other side because I'd pull in everything including the paint chip you fixed two years ago and I'd convince a jury you built your vehicle as nothing but a killing machine for the sole purpose of killing innocent, God fearing bystanders. Anyway, excluding an accident not resulting in death or injury and a huge lawsuit, the best thing you can do is not be an idiot and not flaunt the law. That means build your vehicle in compliance with federal and state regulations. If they say the bumper can't be more than nn inches from the ground, then stick with it. There is such a thing as a frivolous law suit and lawyers (firms) can not file a lawsuit against someone for something that obviously isn't the case. i.e. They can not claim that your bumper being 5 inches higher than state regulations contributed to the death of aunt Polly's Boxer when the bumper obviously isn't 5 inches above state regulations. Lawyers can be censured for that kind of behavior. Do not use drive train, steering parts, brake parts, etc. that aren't DOT certified. If its not DOT certified, technically its not legal on the street. Period. If they discover a part on your vehicle that isn't DOT certified, then that's a big foot in the door and they can form an entire case around how that part is what caused/contributed the whole thing. Again, irrespective of whether it did or not. Modifications to braking and steering are the big ones and are the obvious target if someone is looking for grounds to sue - because, well, they're obvious. My advice for ever is to never use non-DOT parts. They may be able to claim you're not using the part for its intended purpose, but IMHO I'd rather fight that than I had something that was illegal on my vehicle in the first place. The second point is that if it looks factory, the majority of the people out there will assume its stock. The majority of the people include cops, insurance adjusters, as well as just the general public. If it looks aftermarket that will catch their eye. No one really pays attention if things just look like 'normal'. I've had numerous cops and insurance people go over my big Sport and the overwhelming majority think it's just a simple lift kit and immediately stop paying any attention. Which is good because they take one look at all the stock GM and Ford parts and stop paying attention and miss the single almost entirely hidden Heim joint - which is ABSOLUTELY not legal on the street and which they would certainly nail me for here in CO. I had one REALLY pissy state patrol about 10 years ago go over my big Sport with a fine tooth comb. Spent about 35-40 minutes just looking for an excuse and finally gave up. Which just made him even more pissy. This is not legal advice, but I wouldn't worry too much about armor. I WOULD worry about the other stuff. I have a LOT of background and very, very good lawyers and I wouldn't give myself a very good chance of winning if someone got killed in an accident I was involved in even if it were clearly their fault. Keep in mind that you can STILL be sued and they can STILL win EVEN if it absolutely is the other person's fault. If they can prove or convince a jury that there was any chance the other person would have lived if whatever wasn't the way it was you're done. A several (possibly tens of) million dollar lawsuit would ruin most people and that's what you have to consider. Something else to consider is that in the legal world, you get what you pay for. If the other side is running $1000 an hour lawyers and all you can foot is a $50 an hour ambulance chaser working out of the back of his 20 year old Civic - you're screwed. A legal defense in wrongful death can run you $1 million dollars or more. So, my theory is, ya gets your cards and ya takes your chances. But, its a good thing for everyone to think about because most people never consider anything like this. Edward
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Post by jay4x4 on Aug 31, 2014 1:52:08 GMT -5
So it has been a while, Had lots going on and became pretty too busy to hop on the boards. I have some time freeing up right now so thought I would chime back in with a few things new and a few questions I had. Yea, hear you there. Work, house, and rebuilding the big Sport. Freshened drive shafts, new front CM axle shafts, new stabilizer and new 1 ton drag link. Still chasing a really nasty vibration above 55. That is a good question. I've been up and down this with insurance companies for years. I've stopped just short of taking this to counsel. We have one of the top five in the US on retainer so they'd be able to answer the question I'm sure but it wouldn't be a cheap answer. What I've dug out on my own goes like this ... Anyone can sue anyone else for anything. I mean that literally. Whether they'd be successful is another question. What they sue your for and what comes up in the suit will be used to convince a judge or jury one way or the other. Law suits are interesting animals. A common misconception in a jury trial is that decisions are based on facts, which is untrue. They're based on perception. This is not my opinion - this is directly from our counsel. Facts frequently aren't what sways a jury. Which is where it gets sticky for people modifying vehicles. A good law team will try to convince the jury that irrespective of facts, you're an evil, dangerous person with no consideration for the common good and the safety of others - because you're screwing with an obviously perfect and safe vehicle and if you just hadn't touched it everyone would be just fine. It wouldn't matter if you were an engineer with decades of experience or even if the modifications even contributed - if they can convince the jury that nothing would have happened if you didn't touch anything, its over. Facts be damned. The facts of the mater are, if you modify a vehicle you are going to have a huge mountain to surmount just to get to even footing with the other side. That is just the way it is and has really always been. Guilty until proven innocent is a bad place to be but that pretty much is where we're at. Things like armor are probably not going to come up in a normal accident. If there's an injury or death on the other side, EVERYTHING will come up. You would not want me as a lawyer for the other side because I'd pull in everything including the paint chip you fixed two years ago and I'd convince a jury you built your vehicle as nothing but a killing machine for the sole purpose of killing innocent, God fearing bystanders. Anyway, excluding an accident not resulting in death or injury and a huge lawsuit, the best thing you can do is not be an idiot and not flaunt the law. That means build your vehicle in compliance with federal and state regulations. If they say the bumper can't be more than nn inches from the ground, then stick with it. There is such a thing as a frivolous law suit and lawyers (firms) can not file a lawsuit against someone for something that obviously isn't the case. i.e. They can not claim that your bumper being 5 inches higher than state regulations contributed to the death of aunt Polly's Boxer when the bumper obviously isn't 5 inches above state regulations. Lawyers can be censured for that kind of behavior. Do not use drive train, steering parts, brake parts, etc. that aren't DOT certified. If its not DOT certified, technically its not legal on the street. Period. If they discover a part on your vehicle that isn't DOT certified, then that's a big foot in the door and they can form an entire case around how that part is what caused/contributed the whole thing. Again, irrespective of whether it did or not. Modifications to braking and steering are the big ones and are the obvious target if someone is looking for grounds to sue - because, well, they're obvious. My advice for ever is to never use non-DOT parts. They may be able to claim you're not using the part for its intended purpose, but IMHO I'd rather fight that than I had something that was illegal on my vehicle in the first place. The second point is that if it looks factory, the majority of the people out there will assume its stock. The majority of the people include cops, insurance adjusters, as well as just the general public. If it looks aftermarket that will catch their eye. No one really pays attention if things just look like 'normal'. I've had numerous cops and insurance people go over my big Sport and the overwhelming majority think it's just a simple lift kit and immediately stop paying any attention. Which is good because they take one look at all the stock GM and Ford parts and stop paying attention and miss the single almost entirely hidden Heim joint - which is ABSOLUTELY not legal on the street and which they would certainly nail me for here in CO. I had one REALLY pissy state patrol about 10 years ago go over my big Sport with a fine tooth comb. Spent about 35-40 minutes just looking for an excuse and finally gave up. Which just made him even more pissy. This is not legal advice, but I wouldn't worry too much about armor. I WOULD worry about the other stuff. I have a LOT of background and very, very good lawyers and I wouldn't give myself a very good chance of winning if someone got killed in an accident I was involved in even if it were clearly their fault. Keep in mind that you can STILL be sued and they can STILL win EVEN if it absolutely is the other person's fault. If they can prove or convince a jury that there was any chance the other person would have lived if whatever wasn't the way it was you're done. A several (possibly tens of) million dollar lawsuit would ruin most people and that's what you have to consider. Something else to consider is that in the legal world, you get what you pay for. If the other side is running $1000 an hour lawyers and all you can foot is a $50 an hour ambulance chaser working out of the back of his 20 year old Civic - you're screwed. A legal defense in wrongful death can run you $1 million dollars or more. So, my theory is, ya gets your cards and ya takes your chances. But, its a good thing for everyone to think about because most people never consider anything like this. Edward Totally makes sense just figured you never know, just got to be smart about it. On another note I have A LOT I want to post up with my vehicle that I am getting done but need help with something and its driving me nuts. I recently got some HD OME rear coils and went to match the front but when I went under the torsion bars are maxed out. SO from there after some research I decided to reindex my bars by 2 splines. Well during that process the adjustment bolt striped and had the loud pop of the bar unwinding right in my ear (sounded like a gun shot) and the bolt fly back towards me. SCARY...Ive read numerous people doing this and not having a problem. Could I need a new bolt because the old one was fatigued? I tried again with a 4runner adjustment bolt, a bit longer but same thread pitch and diameter but didnt appear to be as strong (grade 3 vs grade 10) I think. Well anyways doing it that way without even getting that side matched to the other side that bolt couldn't hold the tension and stripped and flew back. What is going on? This side doesn't even have the same amount of tension as the other side (lower ride height). In all honestly I want to just get the OME bars but will take a week and cant drive my sport right now due to the crazy ride height difference. (39" rear 33" front). So if I can get it somewhat close till I can get my OME bars in it would help a lot. How easily can a torsion bar snap? would it just strip splines? would the bolt break again if their were too much pressure? totally lost and tired and discouraged so sorry for slopply write up. What to do? soon as I can get this resolved I have a fw updates with pictures I would like to add. Thanks.
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Post by ES_97Sport on Sept 2, 2014 15:27:52 GMT -5
... Yea, and very, very careful. Because of interests elsewhere I keep up with legal stuff and the courts. Pretty scary and pretty nauseating. Something else to be aware of. I forgot to mention this last week and the roll-over off Black Bear this weekend here in CO brought it to mind. Roll over on Black Bear Pass, ColoradoAs the driver you are liable if a passenger is injured. I think most everyone knows that. If your insurance doesn't cover medical costs, then the difference comes out of your pocket. Running the most bare bones, no frills insurance isn't the most intelligent thing to do. Wheeling accidents - even the ones that happen at 1/8th of MPH can cause some really bad injuries. Especially roll-overs. I run a lot more insurance on my big Sport than I do on my normal vehicles just for this reason. You never know when you might have to pick someone up on the trail and then have something unforeseen happen on the way out. People are crazy and a lot of them think an accident means they just hit the lottery. Anyway, something to think on. Torsion bars are just like springs. Well, ok, not 'like', they ARE springs. So, they wear out like leaf or coils do. I've never heard of anyone actually wearing out a set of torsion bars, though, even with a bull bar and winch on the front. Our vehicles aren't that old so it's not like these have been on the road for 40 years before we started modifying them. AFAIKT, though, the torsion bars on the '97-'99 and the torsion bars on the '00-'05 are different rates. I DO NOT know if that's because they're indexed differently or if they actually ARE different rates. My '97-'99s are a LOT stiffer in the front than my '03 or any '00-'05 I've ever driven, so that may be a heretofore undiscovered issue. Yea, I bet. There's a LOT of stored energy in springs and torsion bars are under a LOT of tension. Those are supposed to be at least grade 8 bolts and nuts. DO NOT use anything less! Having a torsion bar or spring go at highway speed is not something you want to experience. It'll probably be the last thing you'll experience. Ever. BTW, you aren't doing the adjustments with the vehicle weight on the tires are you? The front should be off the ground and 'unsprung'. It sounds like you're using substandard or as you said fatigued bolts and nuts. I really can't stress this enough. Most people do not understand the energy stored in a spring. Seriously, it's scarey. I've heard of people getting killed when trying to remove a coil spring and it came out of the bucket and hit them. Might as well have someone shoot you in the head and be done. I would strongly suggest going to a bolt store - not a hardware store, not Home Depot or Lowes. A REAL BOLT STORE (or back to the dealership). We have one here and they're the only place I'll go for stuff like that. They supply commercially and all they sell is hardware. A grade 8 bolt will actually be a grade 8 bolt. The stuff you get from the hardware store or some big box home improvement store ARE NOT reliable!!!!! It doesn't matter if it's stamped grade 8 or not. Almost all of this stuff comes from China and the crap they ship us is, well, crap. This has been the news for the last few years. They're shipping stuff to us that is sub-standard. Not just to us - the public - but to the military and construction companies. Scary since this stuff is going into things like bridges and skyscrapers. Not where you'd want bolts to fail. I ran into this several years ago when i was building the bolts for my rear leaf springs. I picked up a few from the hardware store - grade 8 - and took them to the machine shop. My machinist got a little curious when he put the first on the lathe. Took them and ran a rockwell test. According to him, they weren't even close. Said they turned like they were just standard home improvement grade hardware. Absolutely nothing you'd trust on a car. Anyway, he warned me about this problem and said they'd been having problem for years - since stuff started being mass dumped in the US by China. It's a problem with gears, axles, all kinds of things. For a torsion bar to snap? Possible but unlikely. I've seen it happen but very, very rarely and there are always extenuating circumstances. Such as jumping a vehicle. You're not any less or more likely to bust a coil spring or leaf spring (on the front of a vehicle). No, it wouldn't just strip the splines. Either the bar will break or strip the splines, but it won't strip the splines before breaking. The principal behind splines on a torsion bar is the same as the splines on a transmission output shaft to a transfer case or an axle shaft to a differential. Racing, and wheeling I've seen LOTS of broken axle shafts. Even ones that have literately been twisted in half. I have NEVER, EVER seen anything where the splines have been striped out. The closest I've ever seen was the first set of intermediate shafts I had made for my transfer case conversion where the male 23 spline side went into the female side of the t-case. That was because the splines were cut wrong - which was obvious when you looked at them. My machinist, every machinist I could find in Denver, the heat treating company, and the gear company that did my second set have all said the same thing. They've never see splines strip out of anything. Closest anyone's seen, including me, has been where an axle shaft was twisted in half right at the splines. If the splines are cut right and fitting is correct, the rest of the part will fail long before they do. That said, if the splines are wrong, the female end or male end are worn beyond tolerance, anything is possible. BUT, this is easy to check. If there's a wear apparent at all, you'll see deformation of the splines before failure. What you should see (if there's anything to see at all) is shiny where the splines contact each other. Very old, soft axles will probably show a very slight, almost unmeasurable indent where contact is made just from normal wear and tear. My BP (Buick/Pontiac) shafts are really, really soft - lucky me - but even after a couple hundred K miles only show shiny where the splines contact. Anyway, given the clearance for the male/female splines on torsion bars, you probably won't even see shiny. BTW, make sure you reinstall them using something like HP molly synthetic grease. The biggest problem - and it sounds like yours - is the attachment hardware. KIM, though, as springs get older and stressed they're more likely to break and wheeling is hard on springs. Nothing lasts forever. I'd do as I suggested. Get some no kidding for real high quality bolts and replace what you have - both sides. If you're really paranoid, pull the bars and check the splines. Re-grease them and put them back in. Make sure that you ARE NOT trying to torque these up dry and don't use an impact wrench! One of the problems people run across is trying to tighten bolts that are all crudded up and un-lubricated with a lot of force on them. Even good bolts will fail if you do that. Leaf spring U bolts are good examples. And, an impact wrench it going to beat the crap out of the threads - which will cause the bolt to fail. The correct way to do this is to jack it up so the front tires are off the ground, pull the bolts, clean the treads on the nuts and bolts, replace the hardware (correct grade bolts, nuts and hardened washers) if its starting to look corroded, lube up the bolts and nuts and reassemble everything. Set it down, measure, put it back up and tighten things up. Repeat. It also helps once you set it down to bounce the front end up and down several times before measuring - you need it to settle to get an accurate measurement. Once you're down to the last 1/4-1/2" take it for a spin around the block, then measure. Repeat if necessary. (then make sure you get it aligned) If you're going off road, stick a spare bolt, washer and nut in the vehicle along with the wrenches you'll need. I'd suck to have one let go on the trail. And, lastly, if I remember correctly, the factory uses lithium grease for the splines. I prefer HP molly full synthetic as it doesn't wash out like lithium does. I understand your feelings right now. All I can say is keep your chin up. Still upper lip and all that. I'm kinda in the same boat. I just dumped $5K in my big Sport rebuilding drive shafts, new drag link, new front axle shafts - bunch of stuff - and I'm not done. I still have a vicious vibration above 65 and I can't tell if its the rear axle or somewhere in the transmission/transfer cases. Worst part is, it'll cost just as much to find out something isn't the problem as it'll cost to fix it so if I don't guess right the first time .... And, I STILL have to get an anti-wrap bar installed before a trash yet another set of leaf springs - which of course, requires a new exhaust. Wheeling is an expensive hobby and it can be really frustrating at times. Edward
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Post by jay4x4 on Sept 3, 2014 10:42:32 GMT -5
ahh yes I remember learning about that. Heard of guy jumping with their cranked torsion bars an busting them, which is crazy even for a stock coilover set up. I would imagine you would ideally like a nice long travel set. I just went ahead and ordered the OME bars, I figure I plan to get a bumper and figured with or without it might as well get the job done right the first time, Although after inspection the splines were fine and everything seemed gravy, even the procedure was done correctly, so I am thinking it was a fluke that the bolt decided to give. I plan to post some pics with everything done. Sorry to hear about your troubles.. sound like the jeep guys talking about their death wobble lol. I can totally see how that would rack up expenses quick, being that it a full on custom vehicle really, not just a stock vehicle with mods. In any case good luck and keep us updated I am curious what it is. Attached a pic of the OME 910 coils and the tow hitch I got off someone selling their sport =). got some rear protection now plus I have a trailer, which sat after selling last truck.
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Post by jay4x4 on Sept 3, 2014 10:46:54 GMT -5
holy crap I just typed a whole page and it only shows part of it arggh.
Well here is a brief pinpoint summary of what went missing although would have liked to share it in more detail lol. just too lazy to type up again
Lucky no one got hurt. I have had exp with the passenger liability thing, not me personally though.
Ended up ordered OME bar and got new shocks to go along with dealer ordered bolt and nuts.
Had a incident with cheap bolts before saying they were grade 8. Now go to a specialty shop.
Very good idea about carrying an extra bolt and nut.
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Post by ES_97Sport on Sept 3, 2014 12:51:43 GMT -5
ahh yes I remember learning about that. Heard of guy jumping with their cranked torsion bars an busting them, which is crazy even for a stock coilover set up. I would imagine you would ideally like a nice long travel set. I just went ahead and ordered the OME bars, I figure I plan to get a bumper and figured with or without it might as well get the job done right the first time, Although after inspection the splines were fine and everything seemed gravy, even the procedure was done correctly, so I am thinking it was a fluke that the bolt decided to give. I plan to post some pics with everything done. Yep. That's usually what causes that. Jumping vehicles that really aren't built for it causes a LOT of stress. Not that there are a lot of guys driving Sports that are retarded enough to do this, but I'm surprised we haven't seen a post about someone snapping a front frame rail. You'll like the new bars. Especially once you have a bull bar and winch. We put Sway-A-Ways on CoSport's back in the day. Very, very nice. Bolts get old and those are under a lot of stress. I never had to deal with this directly since my Sport only made it to 88K before the SAS. I wish it was that simple. A vibration in my big Sport indicates a problem since the day the SAS was done it has never done that. Usually can do 80 out to Moab and back and its glass smooth. So, something has an issue. Be nice if it was easier to pin point. This is one of those that seems to be coming from the entire vehicle all at once, but from nowhere in particular. Hate those. Nice! Keep us posted on how the coils work out. Now you need to fix the exhaust tip before you whack it on something. Edward
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Post by jay4x4 on Sept 6, 2014 11:49:49 GMT -5
Yep. That's usually what causes that. Jumping vehicles that really aren't built for it causes a LOT of stress. Not that there are a lot of guys driving Sports that are retarded enough to do this, but I'm surprised we haven't seen a post about someone snapping a front frame rail. You'll like the new bars. Especially once you have a bull bar and winch. We put Sway-A-Ways on CoSport's back in the day. Very, very nice. Bolts get old and those are under a lot of stress. I never had to deal with this directly since my Sport only made it to 88K before the SAS. I wish it was that simple. A vibration in my big Sport indicates a problem since the day the SAS was done it has never done that. Usually can do 80 out to Moab and back and its glass smooth. So, something has an issue. Be nice if it was easier to pin point. This is one of those that seems to be coming from the entire vehicle all at once, but from nowhere in particular. Hate those. Nice! Keep us posted on how the coils work out. Now you need to fix the exhaust tip before you whack it on something. Edward haha ya I had an auto shop teacher back in the day tell me about that since he liked low riders. He would say how it's ok to loosen them to drop the truck but cranking them up and jumping them (unloading and loading them quickly) was going to snap them, I'd say just like anything else moderation is key. Should be getting the bars Tuesday or Wednesday, really excited for that, not even so much to have the new bars but to have my sport back in action. Thanks, I will let you guys know how the coils work out. Looked at Sway-a-way bars but looked like ours were "no longer available". haha ya I whacked the tip already, I've been planning to bend or cut it. I think I saw a "diy" about which way to do it on here or your site. Still working on sliders and a skid plate. have the metal laying around though lol. I did get some new shocks, procomp es3000, not the best by any means but hell beats stock shocks with 225k on them. Went to install them and noticed that they gave me wrong ones for the rear (no eyelet just stud) so wasn't able to complete that, going to pick the correct ones up today (these are only about an inch longer than last as I don't want to take sway bar off. I lengthen ad widened my roof basket, I know your not a big fan of them for a good reason but I like the looks and use them quite often. I put light loads up there to clear room in the vehicle, Like say a trip to vegas would put all our bags on the roof and keep a cooler and such in the hatch (lol don think I will be fitting in any of their parking garages now with antenna,lift and roof basket. Plus I would like a rear or side lights for backing up or maybe changing a tire in the dark. ohh also in the pic of the rack their is a thick metal plate welded to the rear. That is for my "lil wil" antenna to stick on to so it's still about the "roof line" 80mph with that beast huh? nice I don't do over 70-75mph maybe it's just me not liking a recirculating ball vs rack and pinon for stability... Are you thinking it's just a worn part or something really wrong and maybe threw off geometry? sounds terrible. the cost to fix is more than I bought my sport for ($1900). Good Luck Sir, keep up informed. On a last note, has anyone done the rubicon trail? Ive read an article about three monteros' going through it with mild mods and hear most vehicles can with mild mods and ARMOR. I know it can be as hard as you like but seems to me if you just wanted to do it for the sake of it that you don't need a full on monster to do it. I'd love to do it one day just because it is Iconic just like Moab, which one day I'll make it that way as well.
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Post by jay4x4 on Sept 6, 2014 19:54:17 GMT -5
Sp picked up the shocks and they turned out to be 1in shorter than stock lol. had to go back and exchange it and got ones that were 3ins longer than stock. I did not do the whole measuring thing to get the most travel and I don't plan to remove the sway bar. From research I've found that theres something floating around for a quick disconnect. similar to a limiting strap, seeing as I have heard that with it disconnected it will cause problems when flexing. In any case I think I have a decent amount now till I get everything else put together. For anyone who has done the rear driver side shock all I have to say is "What the Hell". Time and time again I have put off the purchase of ratcheting wrenches thinking that I will rarely use them but have since cursed numerous times at why I haven't picked a pair up...Really wouldn't have helped much on that drivers side though but would have taken anything at that point. To anyone who hasn't done it yet, its wedged between the gas tank and the frame you have a tiny area to work with and there is a lip a bit out so when using a 3/8" ratchet or bigger, you will loosen it a bit out then cant get the socket off or the anything else for that matter, just shitty really. I ended up bending the thin metal piece in the wheel well to get a better grip on things but not by much. Not the best shocks either but will seem to fair better than my beat up stock ones.
On another note, I got my antenna in place on the roof and now it seems like I will need a coax extension.. argh. Seeing as I wont be doing anything too crazy for a while, I really need to build a tire carrier. As stated before the roof isn't a good spot. From their I need to finally get my sliders going, not so much for the rocks but so I can actually use my Hi lift jack if I needed it, only stable spot right now is on tow hitch. I don't trust the nerf bars. Then after that my damn skid plate lol. This is in addition to all the leaking seals I have found when under there (trans pan seems both areas by the U joints are or were leaking oil). All in all their is a lot of work to be done in upgrades and repairs. Still lusting over those transfer case gears that cost as much as I paid for my sport lol.
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Post by ES_97Sport on Sept 15, 2014 17:01:50 GMT -5
Yep. That's usually what causes that. Jumping vehicles that really aren't built for it causes a LOT of stress. .... haha ya I had an auto shop teacher back in the day tell me about that since he liked low riders. He would say how it's ok to loosen them to drop the truck but cranking them up and jumping them (unloading and loading them quickly) was going to snap them, I'd say just like anything else moderation is key.[/quote] Yep, he's right. Unless some very serious (and very expensive) work has been done, jumping a vehicle is probably the worst thing you can do to it. Should be getting the bars Tuesday or Wednesday, really excited for that, not even so much to have the new bars but to have my sport back in action. Thanks, I will let you guys know how the coils work out. Looked at Sway-a-way bars but looked like ours were "no longer available". ... Cool! I think the sway-a-ways went away not too long after we did CoSport's. Too bad. Those were very nice and were pretty inexpensive. Oh, yea, I figured. I was noticing that I'd managed to whack the tip on my little '97 last time we were out in Moab. I don't even know how or when. :rolleyes: That thing really does just hang out there. I was sorting stuff weekend before last and ran across all the T6061 for the gas tank skid plate I was going to do and my last front skid plate for the IFS. Won't use the front plate, but maybe if I get bored this winter I'll do up the gas tank one. Not like I need it normally, but one of these days I may find something nasty to hit the tank on. Mmmmm. I haven't looked at those. I was shopping Fox's site last night. Looking for a better quality, higher rate replacement for the Rancho RS5000 and RS7000. FAIKT, the Rancho RS5000 has kinda turned into junk. The 7000 seems nice - maybe a bit weak for me. Semi-gas charged which some people don't like as it isn't exactly 50/50 like a normal uncharged stabilizer, but I can't tell the difference between it and a RS5000. Feels good to me and it works better than the RS5000. Anyway, I noticed that Fox has adjustable shocks now like the RS9000. They use a finger adjustable dial like the Ranchos - so no tools or disassembly or unmounting the shock to adjust. Being that their Fox, I'm sure the price is insane. No, I don't 'dislike' roof racks in general or even the idea of a roof rack. I loved my Garvin and it was REALLY handy! It depends on the vehicle and what you're doing with it. I just can't run a roof rack anymore. 25" of ground clearance to the frame means my COG is way, WAY up there. Top that off with a heavier engine and now softer springs front and rear, and ... I can't even imagine what it'd be like now to run a rack. Just the more you off road with a vehicle the more of a huge liability a rack and associated weight becomes. I'm getting ready to have a set of new 17" rims built to replace my 15"s. Move from a 8" to a 9", pull the back-spacing back 1/2" so that'll increase the width a tad and cut my sidewall height by 1" (or 2" depending on how you look at it). Trying to get my big Sport more off-camber friendly without totally screwing up the sidewall flex and footprint off road. Hoping to get my big Sport of to doing Cliff Hanger, Moab Rim in Moab and Holy Cross here in CO. Got it flexing better than ever but that off camber stuff .... Yea, the back up light thing rocks! BTW, look at the LED BU bulb replacements. I picked up a set several years ago. Higher light output, less wattage. WAY better now! Think I paid about $15. Now as good as what you're talking about but better than stock. Side lights - or as their known in the 'biz', 'rock lights'. Get several strings of those goofy LED light tubes the lowrider crowd uses for ground effects. Run them on the outside of the pinch lip under the body around the vehicle. Several companies make sealed tubes so their suitable for off road use. If you get the right set they put out A LOT of light. I've seen the white ones. Wicked. Switch them so you have left, right, rear and front. That'll give you plenty of light and it'll be low so it'll never blind you like over heads will. It will ALSO not blind your spotter(s) at night. This project is on my list with side floods built into the bull bar. The shop says they'll cut the holes and mount the tabs cheap. I just have to pick the lights. I want to tie those into the turn signals so that when you turn on a turn signal that side comes on. Cadillac and a couple others do that factory. My stock Sports and especially my '03 with running lights isn't such a problem, but my big Sport is horrible. Can't see anything to the sides at night when I'm waiting to make a turn. Everyone says that, until they drive it. The only Sport that comes close to my big Sport in handling is the '97-'99s. And the only thing that makes them handle better is the rock stiff totally over the top sway bars and springs. The '00-'05 is a wallowing pig in comparison. There's no IFS anymore; I have a solid axle in the front and on top of that I have the Ford Bronco radius arm suspension and the way that suspension works turns the axle into a giant sway bar. My two favorite questions from people that see my big Sport is 'how does it handle on the street' and 'how does it do off road'. These from people that catch me off road or people that see me doing 50-55 around a cloverleaf on the highway. The wheeling crowd doesn't think it drives worth a damn on the highway and the people on the street can't believe how well it does off road. Too funny. LOL!!! THIS is why no one can understand why I don't want to retire it. I put 2000 miles on it a month back and forth to work and 1/2 is highway - 70-75 MPH - and it is SO much fun to drive. Especially with the squishy gel 'butt' pad in the driver seat. Comfy vehicle. Stupid as it may sound, it's blast to drive in the canyons, too. Not quite as much fun as my 'Bird, but still a lot of fun. Difference between slapping random parts on a vehicle and engineering a solution. All four ball joints latter. Still chasing a vibration/noise. Doesn't seem to be in the front anymore. I don't know if that's a good thing or not. I'm going to replace the power steering pump - different issue, I think - and the hoses while I'm there. Realigned (again) and had the tires re-balanced and rotated Saturday. Honestly, I can't tell what's going on. Every time I've fixed a problem and got rid of a vibration, but now I'm to the point that its almost impossible to trace. Sigh. Taking it off road hasn't shown anything up, either. Next step is the rear. I need to get that anti-wrap bar on and that'll require major surgery so while they're there I'll have them look at the rear axle and pinion angle. Its very likely at this point that the springs are squishy enough that my pinion angle is shifting JUST enough to cause this. We'll see .... Utah first next week. I'll worry further after I get back. Yea, I'd trade. Almost $5000 in the front end and drive shafts in a month and a half. On the + side - I have an entirely new front end minus the housing. Even had new CM shafts and outers installed. Way expensive. Not me, but the 4x4 Wire Montero bunch with Lloyd have done it a time or two if I remember correctly. Wicked trail. Don't know if I'd be inclined to take a stock (or near) Sport. I believe Lloyd required one locker and min 32/33"s and real skid plates. From all the pics, it's a lot like CO. Granite. Lots of rocks. NOTHING like southern UT. I've always wanted to go. Been invited several times but never have the time off or the vehicle isn't ready. Be fun once, but I hear its REALLY busy which kinda turns me off. I don't like to have to wait for four hours to get though an obstacle. One of the reasons I don't go to Easter Jeep in Moab. Edward
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Post by ES_97Sport on Sept 15, 2014 18:35:18 GMT -5
... From research I've found that theres something floating around for a quick disconnect. similar to a limiting strap, seeing as I have heard that with it disconnected it will cause problems when flexing. Go to the 4x4 Jeep/Toy shops. Take a length measurement on yours and have them get you a set that's the same length. Within +/- 1/2" would be fine. I know there are out there. The guys in AU I think even have a set that specifically will fit the older Sport rear. Nothing you can do for the front as they are directly bolted to the A arms. Honestly, these are a waste of time. Carry a boxed end wrench and a socket set. It takes me less than 10 minutes a side to pop the end links - which I do while waiting for my tires to air down. I've seen the miserable hell guys go through trying to get 'quick' disconnects to release and then trying to put them back together at the end of the day when they're tired. Not worth the money on ours. Limiting straps are generally custom made. They're not bolt-ons unless you're dealing with something super generic - like a stock vehicle with no modifications - and then they're pretty useless, IMHO. Any good 4x4 fab shop will be able to take the measurements and have a set made. You may get lucky and they'll have a source for the length you need. Yes, you are correct. The Sport will flex A LOT with the end links disconnected. And 'A LOT' is really a LOT. The stock shocks are too short by far. What happens is the shocks end up being the 'limiting strap' and that is very bad ju ju. Flex it just right and you'll bust a shock or tear a mount off. If you're going with disconnects, get the right length shock and then you won't need straps. If you're getting straps and disconnects and sticking with the stock length shocks, then you're wasting your money and you might as well not go with disconnects at all. It'll flex a little easier without the bar, but you won't get any benefit from the extra travel - which is REALLY what you want to compensate for the POS IFS travel in front. ***EDIT*** DANG IT! I wrote this entire thing and realized I stuck my foot in my mouth. Sorry. The rear WILL flex without a sway bar (or with disconnects) enough in extreme circumstances to pull the rear drive shaft yoke out of the t-case. This is not personal experience - this is just what I remember hearing over the years. I remember reading ONE person on Wire having this happen many, many years ago. Probably Lloyd. Now, what I DO know from experience, is that it will flex enough to pull the yoke out far enough that it accelerates wear on the yoke. The only place the rear can flex enough is off road so this isn't a problem on the street. This is the only thing I can think of where limiting straps would be advantageous given a properly configured suspension. The draw back is that straps would limit maximum articulation - which is what you're looking for on a Sport. You want as much as you can get to compensate for the crappy front. SO, I guess what you'd want to do is jack the vehicle up with the axle dangling, measure spline engagement, figure out how much you need to limit the droop for proper engagement and go from there. Now, that said, I've replaced three yokes from Jan '98 when I bought my big '97 to 2008 when I did the NP231 with a fixed rear yoke and slip drive shaft. That was about 400K miles and a LOT of hard wheeling. So, you might decide that replacing a yoke is a cheaper solution and a good trade off for the extra articulation. ***EDIT*** BTW, you'll need tabs welded both to the axle housing as well as to the cross member for limiting straps. DO NOT EVER do what a lot of people do and attach the limiting strap to the top and bottom shock mounts unless you want to tear a shock mount off. Uh, that depends on your definition of 'isn't a good spot'. For a radio antenna to work correctly you need a good ground plane. That means a large, flat metallic area with the antenna in the middle. I don't remember the recommended surface area for a CB or even a short wave, but since we don't get tweek that most times you want it in the middle of the roof - both left to right and front to back. Stick as close to that formula as you can (as is pratical) and you'll be ok. Mounting on the side/rear is the WORST thing you can do and will seriously decrease the range and create 'blind spots'. So, if you put it on the passenger side rear quarter, it may work ok(ish) to the right and rear but suck to the left and front. Used to do this a LOT when I was younger. You can get SW range out of a CB if the weather is right and you have decent equipment and a good antenna. And its set up correctly. My humble off-roading opinion? Stick it on the roof. Less likely to tear it off on something overhead than the side. I still suggest a really good magnetic mount like my K40. That way you can take it off when you need to get in the garage and it won't tear a hole in your roof if you forget. Oh, yea. The stock bars won't support the vehicle. Don't even try. BTW, if you're going for disconnected sway bars on the trail, get a couple good, stout - not too long - ratchet straps. Something with a 1000/1500lb rating, or a short chain with a hook. I prefer the straps - easier to work with. If you get them long enough you can loop them around the axle housing and upper cross member 4-5 times and then cinch it down. If you pop a tire off road and have to change it, you might not be able to jack the back off the ground enough to lift the tire even with a Hi-Lift. I know it sounds crazy, but the back has a LOT of flex and you don't know what the terrain is going to be. I lost a tire on Iron Chest years ago on almost flat ground but because I couldn't move the vehicle and it was up on rocks by about 15" higher than I could put the jack base, I was out of jack before I'd exceeded the flex in the rear springs. BTW, if you have the skids done rather than going to All-Pro, have them put notches or something at the front, rear and middle of the skid so you have a good, stable point to use the Hi-Lift. Like a duffus I forgot to have this done when they put the new skids on my little '97. Trying to use a Hi-Lift off road without a secure point to put the jack on the bar is going to cause body damage and bodily damage. Do not ask how I know this. Oh, yea! You check into axle gears? That might be a cheaper solution and it'd let you put off the t-case gears for longer. 4.90s would make a HUGE difference if you're running the 4.3x's. Can't remember what you're running now. Anyway, they'd be a really nice tweek for bigger tires and heavier loads. I took the big Sport out weekend before last up to a trail I haven't been on before. First time in 4WD this year. So, so sad. Had my stock Sports in and out of 4WD a few times this year, though. I forget how much I love the lower t-case gears. Drove 2/3 of the trail in 2Lo-Lo (4:1). Didn't put it into 4WD until I turned around to come back out. I might not have needed to even then, but the trail was really muddy and it felt like slippery wet clay. Pretty steep climbing back out and rutted. Even in 4WD I was all over that trail a couple times. Made me a little nervous with a potential 100-200 foot roll off the down hill side. Edward
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Post by jay4x4 on Sept 16, 2014 0:57:31 GMT -5
They finally came and got everything in order, funny though that I have a good amount of rake now, Called ARB to ask them and I guess with their constant duty springs it will give "extra lift" or just not compress really with standard load. That being said with my new bars almost maxed out (left good room for bump stops per instructions) my rear sits about 2in higher than my front. What I found odd though was that my rear measurements are the same as yours when you have a leaf re curved (correct me if I am wrong). That was what I read from your site anyways. Were you able to match the front perfectly? ARB mentioned they did engineer it to have some rake and I will have a bit more than normal. In any case I got that set up because I do tow and sometimes do like to take some easy trails with a full vehicle and don't want to sag like I used to. This hasn't proved to be a negative to me yet, In fact I think my turning radius shortened a bit. I will say he rear end does feel a bit floaty though, not stiff as some would think.
Funny you mention that even though I think it was said before the stock one is pretty decent. I always thought that would be a big thing to protect seeing as not only will it immobilize you, but also drain your fuel so that even if you have were able to fix the leak with a putty but didn't bring a can with you, then you were pretty much screwed. (actually plan to respond to your post about jerry cans too, find that something interesting as well)
Got the new shocks with some added length to them, they do say they have something inside of them to protect from over extension, how well it will work? I'll find out. After making the purchase I've read quite a bit of reviews on them and the consensus was that they are pretty stiff, except a few said they were perfect. Well let me say that those must be some mall crawlers, sheesh I've have way stiffer shocks on my Audi, granted I was setting it up for Auto-x. Anyways I find them to be perfect, maybe on the soft side if anything...Oh man I'd love a Fox set up. Always lusted after Fox mountain big shocks, Although I think they're too different companies.
Finished the rack and I love it. I can totally understand for a set up like yours that might really throw things off, Infact I really could do without it during wheeling, but gosh has that thing come in handy for road work (funny cause it give it a "off road, expeditionish look lol). I never thought about doing those fender liner lights, that is actually a really great idea. I was actually looking at trying to replace most if not all bulbs with led just to help here with power consumption, may not be much but hey better light output too. LOL also I thought the same thing when I saw a pic of your big sport, but sounds like you have it built more stable than a stock sport.
Ahhh yes must have been them in the article. I figure with a rear locker and 33's with good armor would be ok? seeing as we do have a bit better wheelbase right? I have also heard about how busy it gets, which for someone like me would be a bit nerve racking with a bunch of people behind me and annoying to have to wait. Maybe there's a off season lol? Honestly I'd like to just do it once just to say I did. There is a few trails here that get pretty busy like that too, I like pretty close to hammers and such. John bull trail up in big bear being one of them, that I've heard of fights almost breaking out because people can't wait. Shame really to react that way.
As for the limiting strap idea, maybe I got the terminology wrong, but from what I have read, the way monteros/sports sway bar is set up, when disconnected, the bar will twist and the arm can give you some flats. So my thinking way to just get maybe a endlink with a lot of extra thread on it and instead of disconnecting it, just back the nut off to the desired amount of flex. Which I must say is impressive. I messed around with it one day with a jack and disconnected them and wow not bad. As for the Antenna thing. I think I might not have been clear. I meant I need to build a rear tire carrier so I cant keep it out of the cargo area or the roof. I actually got a Lil Will antenna which is pretty much an equivalent of the k40 (picked up a k30 and it was crap lol) I am sure the 40 is leaps and bounds better than the 30 though. I have my antenna with a mag mount (good call on that by the way, I've had to move it a few times already). I never did like those rear side panel firestik set up. Seems to be the trend with a lot of off road vehicles, but honestly like you have said, "not good". Also it makes their transmission a bit directional, Granted I'm sure most of the guys use it for real short range coms off road.
I actually was thinking about asking about making a notch or something of that sort on the sliders for that purpose, Glad you brought it up so I know that I'm not flying all over the place with ideas.
Before I get into the last subject, I got to say, "OH MY GOSH" after really doing some wheeling now, everything you have said is slowly coming to place, Like I always listened and took your advice, but wasn't until recently with first hand experience things click. I guess it is just like when I was going to college, ya my grammar and stuff isn't so well lol, I would totally understand stuff but it wasn't till I did my clinicals in a hospital was I able to see the direct cause and effect of certain things. With that being said, I will agree that these sports are pretty damn capable stock, and with their beefiness put its ahead of something similar, say a 4runner. Besides aftermarket and maybe spark plug design lol. I honestly think with just finishing up armor, 255/85/16 tires, and lower T-case gears, this thing will take me anywhere I want to go, That being hard trails but not so hard that damage is very likely. I had a first hand experience with this whole "you wont put up with the pathetic gear reduction". Goooodness having such crap gear reduction is donwright dangerous. on L with 4Lo and still not putting down the torque with slow speed to do anything.
I currently have 4.63 gears. Last time I researched I think the next one up was 5.29 because the 4.90 didn't fit the 9.5" rear end. I could have read it wrong. In any case If the price was right I think I would go for the 4.90s if it worked. I am sure they make a good difference but just doesn't seem like much to me, I am sure I am wrong just figured do the whole do it once and done thing. I took a look at the T-case gears just for the fact that seemed a lot more easy than trying to find axle gears. How is the price difference? Shoot I even went on your site to see if it would be feasible to drop the the transfer case you did, but after reading it seemed like a lot of custom work for something like mine.
I'll do another post with some pictures right now because last time I tried I lost my whole work and don't feel like typing this again lol.
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Post by jay4x4 on Sept 16, 2014 1:13:01 GMT -5
... From research I've found that theres something floating around for a quick disconnect. similar to a limiting strap, seeing as I have heard that with it disconnected it will cause problems when flexing. Go to the 4x4 Jeep/Toy shops. Take a length measurement on yours and have them get you a set that's the same length. Within +/- 1/2" would be fine. I know there are out there. The guys in AU I think even have a set that specifically will fit the older Sport rear. Nothing you can do for the front as they are directly bolted to the A arms. Honestly, these are a waste of time. Carry a boxed end wrench and a socket set. It takes me less than 10 minutes a side to pop the end links - which I do while waiting for my tires to air down. I've seen the miserable hell guys go through trying to get 'quick' disconnects to release and then trying to put them back together at the end of the day when they're tired. Not worth the money on ours. Limiting straps are generally custom made. They're not bolt-ons unless you're dealing with something super generic - like a stock vehicle with no modifications - and then they're pretty useless, IMHO. Any good 4x4 fab shop will be able to take the measurements and have a set made. You may get lucky and they'll have a source for the length you need. Yes, you are correct. The Sport will flex A LOT with the end links disconnected. And 'A LOT' is really a LOT. The stock shocks are too short by far. What happens is the shocks end up being the 'limiting strap' and that is very bad ju ju. Flex it just right and you'll bust a shock or tear a mount off. If you're going with disconnects, get the right length shock and then you won't need straps. If you're getting straps and disconnects and sticking with the stock length shocks, then you're wasting your money and you might as well not go with disconnects at all. It'll flex a little easier without the bar, but you won't get any benefit from the extra travel - which is REALLY what you want to compensate for the POS IFS travel in front. ***EDIT*** DANG IT! I wrote this entire thing and realized I stuck my foot in my mouth. Sorry. The rear WILL flex without a sway bar (or with disconnects) enough in extreme circumstances to pull the rear drive shaft yoke out of the t-case. This is not personal experience - this is just what I remember hearing over the years. I remember reading ONE person on Wire having this happen many, many years ago. Probably Lloyd. Now, what I DO know from experience, is that it will flex enough to pull the yoke out far enough that it accelerates wear on the yoke. The only place the rear can flex enough is off road so this isn't a problem on the street. This is the only thing I can think of where limiting straps would be advantageous given a properly configured suspension. The draw back is that straps would limit maximum articulation - which is what you're looking for on a Sport. You want as much as you can get to compensate for the crappy front. SO, I guess what you'd want to do is jack the vehicle up with the axle dangling, measure spline engagement, figure out how much you need to limit the droop for proper engagement and go from there. Now, that said, I've replaced three yokes from Jan '98 when I bought my big '97 to 2008 when I did the NP231 with a fixed rear yoke and slip drive shaft. That was about 400K miles and a LOT of hard wheeling. So, you might decide that replacing a yoke is a cheaper solution and a good trade off for the extra articulation. ***EDIT*** BTW, you'll need tabs welded both to the axle housing as well as to the cross member for limiting straps. DO NOT EVER do what a lot of people do and attach the limiting strap to the top and bottom shock mounts unless you want to tear a shock mount off. Uh, that depends on your definition of 'isn't a good spot'. For a radio antenna to work correctly you need a good ground plane. That means a large, flat metallic area with the antenna in the middle. I don't remember the recommended surface area for a CB or even a short wave, but since we don't get tweek that most times you want it in the middle of the roof - both left to right and front to back. Stick as close to that formula as you can (as is pratical) and you'll be ok. Mounting on the side/rear is the WORST thing you can do and will seriously decrease the range and create 'blind spots'. So, if you put it on the passenger side rear quarter, it may work ok(ish) to the right and rear but suck to the left and front. Used to do this a LOT when I was younger. You can get SW range out of a CB if the weather is right and you have decent equipment and a good antenna. And its set up correctly. My humble off-roading opinion? Stick it on the roof. Less likely to tear it off on something overhead than the side. I still suggest a really good magnetic mount like my K40. That way you can take it off when you need to get in the garage and it won't tear a hole in your roof if you forget. Oh, yea. The stock bars won't support the vehicle. Don't even try. BTW, if you're going for disconnected sway bars on the trail, get a couple good, stout - not too long - ratchet straps. Something with a 1000/1500lb rating, or a short chain with a hook. I prefer the straps - easier to work with. If you get them long enough you can loop them around the axle housing and upper cross member 4-5 times and then cinch it down. If you pop a tire off road and have to change it, you might not be able to jack the back off the ground enough to lift the tire even with a Hi-Lift. I know it sounds crazy, but the back has a LOT of flex and you don't know what the terrain is going to be. I lost a tire on Iron Chest years ago on almost flat ground but because I couldn't move the vehicle and it was up on rocks by about 15" higher than I could put the jack base, I was out of jack before I'd exceeded the flex in the rear springs. BTW, if you have the skids done rather than going to All-Pro, have them put notches or something at the front, rear and middle of the skid so you have a good, stable point to use the Hi-Lift. Like a duffus I forgot to have this done when they put the new skids on my little '97. Trying to use a Hi-Lift off road without a secure point to put the jack on the bar is going to cause body damage and bodily damage. Do not ask how I know this. Oh, yea! You check into axle gears? That might be a cheaper solution and it'd let you put off the t-case gears for longer. 4.90s would make a HUGE difference if you're running the 4.3x's. Can't remember what you're running now. Anyway, they'd be a really nice tweek for bigger tires and heavier loads. I took the big Sport out weekend before last up to a trail I haven't been on before. First time in 4WD this year. So, so sad. Had my stock Sports in and out of 4WD a few times this year, though. I forget how much I love the lower t-case gears. Drove 2/3 of the trail in 2Lo-Lo (4:1). Didn't put it into 4WD until I turned around to come back out. I might not have needed to even then, but the trail was really muddy and it felt like slippery wet clay. Pretty steep climbing back out and rutted. Even in 4WD I was all over that trail a couple times. Made me a little nervous with a potential 100-200 foot roll off the down hill side. Edward I have to say It doesn't seem like all black diamond trails are built the same lol. In this picture I don't think you can tell how steep and rutted, and rocky it was, but trust me it was. Funny thing is, I was able to go up this stock (with a tug from a xj at one point due to not being able to take a line do flex and clearance). After that I went to the little OHV area near me, 15mins away on the back roads, and it is all green circle, a few blues, one black diamond, and a double red diamond, which I have seen in some forums that people have never seen something like this before, but before I get into that I tried the Black diamond in this area and ended up with my driver front tire about 3 feet in the air, could be I didn't have a good spotter that time though. Anyways the Double red diamond you see is one bad little "obstacle" I think it was made for ATVs but is very wide for 4x4s. It is almost too steep to walk up, slick pebbley dirt, and as you are climbing that steepness you have to climb up some 3 foot ledges as you are going up with a bunch of rocks everywhere. Hard to explain but there is a few youtube videos of it, one with a jeep going on it's side, I have yet to see any pictures of anyone going up but have heard it . Think other 4x4 sites mention it too. I know a guy with a almost stock rubicon said he went down but was the worst he has gone in his life, but read another rubicon with 37's locked front and rear couldn't make it up, possibly because he wasn't airred down. I know going down is different than going up but I guess its one of those things you have to see to understand, There was a stock xj that rolled down it and got left there. It was there for quite a few years but I think it was finally removed not to long ago. There was something else really important I wanted to ask too but it escapes me. Well hope to hear back from you guys soon. I wish the forums were more active with trail pics and such, got me itching to talk about this stuff all day not that I have come up on a decent amount of free time.
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