|
Post by jay4x4 on Sept 16, 2014 1:15:18 GMT -5
also in those pics there were ledges to climb up as well. Probably seems tame to you and other but man didn't think I could do a black diamond without a tug with just a lift.
|
|
|
Post by ES_97Sport on Sept 16, 2014 18:45:48 GMT -5
I'm not sure what that equates to here. The old scale was a 1 to 10 with 2-3.5/4 being about 'Easy', 4-6 being 'Moderate' and 8-9 being 'Difficult' in the UT, Moab trail guide from whats-his-name. 10 was just plain insane and buggy only. Guide to Moab, UT Backroads & 4-Wheel Drive Trails (2nd Edition)Now everything is switched or switching to 1-5. So, 1-2.5/3 'Easy', 3.5/4 'Moderate' and 4/4.5 'Difficult'. 5 is like 10. Crazy stupid hard. Hear, we use multi-colored diamonds, circles and squares for skiing. Big problem for me is I'm usually either by my self or have one or two passengers. My passengers don't want to get out and take pictures - they want to go over the obstacles, no watch ME go over the obstacles. LOL! So, no one takes pictures. I've found it very difficult to take pictures and drive at the same time. Guess I'm just not that talented. This year I've missed all the group trail runs. Pretty much given this year up to rebuilding. Heading out to UT for a week this weekend if I can get a new power steering pump and soft hoses installed Thursday, but that'll just be me. I'm going to fiddle with my Contour video camera and see if I can get something from that. Had the thing for two years and haven't had time to do anything with it. Since I'm loosing Mitsu support I'll probably end up spending the rest of this year choosing a new vehicle for my primary wheeling vehicle. Thinking Land Crusher w/ 35"s and dual t-cases & lockers. Jeep guys won't let me go with a anything there since they're convinced it won't last with what I plan to do with it. Those pics look interesting. No, I believe you. I know how it works with photos. Funny you should mention the aired down thing. I've been reading the Pirate arguments on 15 vs. 17 vs. 20whatever 'cause I'm switching to 17"s on my big Sport. They've finally figured out - or re-figured out, again - that these horridly stiff 6-8 ply sidewall tires irrespective of rim size and tire pressure suck. Go figure. How could that be? :rolleyes: I did the photos and wrote a piece 12-14 years ago on one of the crawling events here in CO where I specifically pointed out that these guys were running 0psi and getting NO traction because the tire side walls wouldn't flex AT ALL. Yea, that's great to run 6/8 ply sidewalls 'cause it does make them a LOT less prone to damage, but what I've seen is that most of that damage comes from sliding all over the place and into crud because you don't have any traction. I've run my Geolandar M/Ts since, what, '99, '00? Running at 6/8 to 12 psi? I've only had three side wall damaged tires. One from something like a piece of wire in a stream crossing, one from a 1800s nail I picked up in the snow when I slid off the trail and one slide wall slash from crushed granite out of a mine. And the last didn't puncture the tire. BUT, my tires don't slip and slide all over the place either. Back when I was married and taking the wife and kids to Moab, I showed them the difference in tires, airing down or not, vehicle weight, rim size, etc. because the kids and wife always wanted to know why we never had traction problems going up and down stuff when everyone else did. Even guys airing down to 3-4 psi in much more capable rigs. They thought I must own a tank 'cause it'd go anywhere and everyone else had problems. It took 3-4 trips of them really watching and paying attention before they really believed I wasn't just screwing with them. Can't seem to get through to people sometimes that it ain't all about tread or the compound or pressure. Carcass design makes a HUGE difference. Can't believe the Pirate crowd is rehashing this yet ONE MORE TIME. If you're going to run a supper stiff sidewall you're going to need a LOT of sidewall. Run 15"s. Duh. If you're running a super squishy sidewall like my 4 plys, you can get away with an inch or two bigger rim and the coinciding inch or two less sidewall. Hell, I wouldn't be going to 17s even with my tires if I wasn't planning on retiring my big Sport from primary wheeling duty. But, the roads are rutted and in such bad shape here that the extra sidewall is driving me nuts on the highway. Sigh. LOL!!! You're just coming in a little late to the game. Back when I got my '97 and for five, six years it was all off road, all the time and there were a lot of us. Just ain't as many people any more and most don't wheel. Since I have a growing company to run, my time on is kinda splotchy. And, I haven't had a vehicle to do anything with lately. Sigh. Give me the rest of the year to finish up the 'rebuild' and then next year .... Planing on several trips next year. Been getting ready for that, too. Picked up a new Yeti 75qt for our trip to the Maze next spring. Got the US Mil fuel cans and water can (that don't leak). Fuel was a big one for the Maze. WAY too far to do on one tank of gas. Looking forward to next year. Already scoping out trails. Edward
|
|
|
Post by jay4x4 on Sept 17, 2014 23:32:23 GMT -5
I'm not sure what that equates to here. The old scale was a 1 to 10 with 2-3.5/4 being about 'Easy', 4-6 being 'Moderate' and 8-9 being 'Difficult' in the UT, Moab trail guide from whats-his-name. 10 was just plain insane and buggy only. Guide to Moab, UT Backroads & 4-Wheel Drive Trails (2nd Edition)Now everything is switched or switching to 1-5. So, 1-2.5/3 'Easy', 3.5/4 'Moderate' and 4/4.5 'Difficult'. 5 is like 10. Crazy stupid hard. Hear, we use multi-colored diamonds, circles and squares for skiing. Big problem for me is I'm usually either by my self or have one or two passengers. My passengers don't want to get out and take pictures - they want to go over the obstacles, no watch ME go over the obstacles. LOL! So, no one takes pictures. I've found it very difficult to take pictures and drive at the same time. Guess I'm just not that talented. This year I've missed all the group trail runs. Pretty much given this year up to rebuilding. Heading out to UT for a week this weekend if I can get a new power steering pump and soft hoses installed Thursday, but that'll just be me. I'm going to fiddle with my Contour video camera and see if I can get something from that. Had the thing for two years and haven't had time to do anything with it. Since I'm loosing Mitsu support I'll probably end up spending the rest of this year choosing a new vehicle for my primary wheeling vehicle. Thinking Land Crusher w/ 35"s and dual t-cases & lockers. Jeep guys won't let me go with a anything there since they're convinced it won't last with what I plan to do with it. Those pics look interesting. No, I believe you. I know how it works with photos. Funny you should mention the aired down thing. I've been reading the Pirate arguments on 15 vs. 17 vs. 20whatever 'cause I'm switching to 17"s on my big Sport. They've finally figured out - or re-figured out, again - that these horridly stiff 6-8 ply sidewall tires irrespective of rim size and tire pressure suck. Go figure. How could that be? :rolleyes: I did the photos and wrote a piece 12-14 years ago on one of the crawling events here in CO where I specifically pointed out that these guys were running 0psi and getting NO traction because the tire side walls wouldn't flex AT ALL. Yea, that's great to run 6/8 ply sidewalls 'cause it does make them a LOT less prone to damage, but what I've seen is that most of that damage comes from sliding all over the place and into crud because you don't have any traction. I've run my Geolandar M/Ts since, what, '99, '00? Running at 6/8 to 12 psi? I've only had three side wall damaged tires. One from something like a piece of wire in a stream crossing, one from a 1800s nail I picked up in the snow when I slid off the trail and one slide wall slash from crushed granite out of a mine. And the last didn't puncture the tire. BUT, my tires don't slip and slide all over the place either. Back when I was married and taking the wife and kids to Moab, I showed them the difference in tires, airing down or not, vehicle weight, rim size, etc. because the kids and wife always wanted to know why we never had traction problems going up and down stuff when everyone else did. Even guys airing down to 3-4 psi in much more capable rigs. They thought I must own a tank 'cause it'd go anywhere and everyone else had problems. It took 3-4 trips of them really watching and paying attention before they really believed I wasn't just screwing with them. Can't seem to get through to people sometimes that it ain't all about tread or the compound or pressure. Carcass design makes a HUGE difference. Can't believe the Pirate crowd is rehashing this yet ONE MORE TIME. If you're going to run a supper stiff sidewall you're going to need a LOT of sidewall. Run 15"s. Duh. If you're running a super squishy sidewall like my 4 plys, you can get away with an inch or two bigger rim and the coinciding inch or two less sidewall. Hell, I wouldn't be going to 17s even with my tires if I wasn't planning on retiring my big Sport from primary wheeling duty. But, the roads are rutted and in such bad shape here that the extra sidewall is driving me nuts on the highway. Sigh. LOL!!! You're just coming in a little late to the game. Back when I got my '97 and for five, six years it was all off road, all the time and there were a lot of us. Just ain't as many people any more and most don't wheel. Since I have a growing company to run, my time on is kinda splotchy. And, I haven't had a vehicle to do anything with lately. Sigh. Give me the rest of the year to finish up the 'rebuild' and then next year .... Planing on several trips next year. Been getting ready for that, too. Picked up a new Yeti 75qt for our trip to the Maze next spring. Got the US Mil fuel cans and water can (that don't leak). Fuel was a big one for the Maze. WAY too far to do on one tank of gas. Looking forward to next year. Already scoping out trails. Edward I have noticed when searching a bit that those trail ratings are used for skiing as well I guess lol. Have yet to see the number scale in person, but have seen it mentioned numerous times online, mostly about moab. I totally understand the whole picture thing as it is the same way for me, even just to have someone get out and video something seems like its too much of a hassle for them. Although I love watching videos and seeing pictures. I myself get a bit annoyed sometimes by it in that it just makes everything take a lot longer, and being the driver, I'm the one who has to do all the work. Shame really, I have been trying to stop and take pictures though just to make things more interesting and a bit for fun to read through a thread. Sounds nice! I hope to get out again this weekend too. I hope to finally some videos of your sport in action. As for airing down, That's kind of funny because ya totally makes sense but never have thought about it. Good to know that you haven't had may sidewall punctures. I was actually starting to look at new tires, will take a while to save up, plus mine are only a year old and good amount of tread left. I do not see those geolander M/Ts in the size I want though. currently looking at Cooper STTs. Ya, joining the mitsu club late. Will you longer be on here once you get your new vehicle? What is this Maze thing you speak of? sounds interesting. Hopefully I will have all my card together mid next year and be able to go out to Moab or another destination and have a good wheeling trip, maybe meet up with others. Speaking of which, I ran across today a 96 Montero SR for $600. I don't know the gear ratio but it did have the rear locker. Iw as thinking about picking it up and switching the third member, font diff, and the air pump as well. Then sell the vehicle again private party for $500 or even to a tow yard, but due to time and money constraints I had to scrap that idea. I am curious though, I did some research and I've seen conflicting into on that. one says that one axle is shorter and will need to replaced, not a big problem, others say they are the same. With that aside is it as easy as swapping the third member out and the dropping the front carrier? I haven't come across many who did it and explain it in detail. Find a lot of older SWB monteros and raiders who take sport stuff and use it but not vice versa.
|
|
|
Post by ES_97Sport on Sept 18, 2014 17:33:14 GMT -5
I have noticed when searching a bit that those trail ratings are used for skiing as well I guess lol. Have yet to see the number scale in person, but have seen it mentioned numerous times online, mostly about moab. UT, AZ, NM, CO, NV, WY and MT trails all use the numbering system that I'm aware of - for wheeling. A/UTV, motorcycle and mountain bike is a mish-mash of the 1-10, 1-5 and some weird (sounds like your system) shape/color system. I haven't seen this anywhere but a little around Moab. The shape/color coding is a mess out there. What is wrong with the USFS trail markers with numbers beats me. God help you if you try to follow the shape/color markers 'cause you'll end up lost or on something you don't want to. My mom and I were talking about this year before last. Twenty markers with the same name all going in completely different directions. :rolleyes: I liked the 1-10 a lot better than the 1-5. It was (obviously) more granular, but I think the extra five numbers confused people. I knew that 1 was a street, 5 was medium and to stay as far away from 10 as was possible. 7-8 was as far as I would push myself. Truck would probably do a solid 8-8.5 easy, maybe even some 9s, but I chicken out. 1-5 is a lot like whats-his-name's book ratings. Too general. 1 is super easy, 2 is slightly less super easy, and 3 is still easy to light moderate but when you get to 3.5-4.5 - there's a crazy LOT of variation in difficulty in one point. The old scale ... Moab Trail RatingsIf you ever make it to UT or CO and use Wells' books, keep in mind that first, he didn't run all those trails, and second, his ratings are pretty subjective. I think one or two are actually crack induced. LOL!!! Early on I learned to pay attention to which trails he ran with his Grand Cherokee and which with his Wrangler. His ratings distinctly change depending on what vehicle he used (or rode in). Yep! Totally. Drove my X nuts when I'd make her get out and take pictures. On the other side, though, I understand wanting to ride. Taking pics isn't as much fun as going over the obstacles and most drivers - including myself - aren't going to go back after the pics just to do it again so the picture taker can experience it. I DOES take longer if its a group. Last time we were up Red Cone with 12 vehicles it took an hour and a half at least to get everyone though one obstacle. China Wall was even worse 'cause there were lots of newbs who needed lots of hand holding and getting un-stuck. Those trips are actually the most fun for me, even though I never get any pics of my vehicle, 'cause I'm a photo buff. I can just part and entertain myself with taking pictures. Yep, you're right. Its hard to picture some things without a picture. Kinda like my stuck in quicksand episode in Lavender Canyon outside Needles. Most people don't even know what real quicksand is. Just the movie version - which isn't even the real thing. Yea, problem there is my camera is mounted on the bull bar hoop. Which shows where I'm going, but not really the vehicle. I may try putting it on my skid by the front tire. That might be interesting. Yep. Most people don't. Mostly I think that people are inundated with marketing. 'You got to have the toughest sidewalls made!!' kind of stuff. Problem is that comes at a price. I go through a set every 13 months. Seen mine go from $145 a tire to almost $250 and the 17"s are another $40 a tire jump. I've been doing this for so long that I budget tires into my yearly maintenance costs. Sad, huh. What size are you looking for? No, not going anywhere. I haven't decided if I'll sell my '03 or my little '97 yet. One will go. Three SUVs is my limit. But, my replacement will just be for wheeling trips and probably for more major ones like out to UT. I'll keep my big Sport for work and short CO stuff. I've got WAY to much invested to get rid of it and frankly I LIKE Mitsubishi. A lot better than any other brand. Their paper pushers may be idiots, but their engineers are top notch. No one I've talked to including the Toy guys themselves are convinced even a LC could make 500,000+ miles the way I treat my big Sport. Maybe if I only drive it on Sundays back and forth to the casino and then not above 35 MPH .... LOL!!! I'm hoping loosing the dealership here won't be as catastrophic as it appears right now. One of the reasons i'm considing a LC is that one of our Toy off road shops is just below my house and they can do the entire vehicle rather than half at one shop and half somewhere else like now. Everyone else is 25+ miles away. Oh, dude! The Maze, UTDon't know much more than this. I don't know anyone that's actually gone. Talked to a few old timers that'd been there well back before it was even a park. Oh, and my X had something happen the year after we got divorced when she took her FJ with the kids that required she be hauled out. Understand it kinda put a big damper on her ego. Round trip from Green River to the park entrance and back sucked up all but 1/4 of a tank. That's why I haven't gone before and why I've been all over trying to get good cans for an additional 10 gallons of fuel. Ain't no way I could get anywhere once I dropped to 4WD. I'll have to do the math before we ACTUALLY go and make sure I don't need three cans. We usually go out a couple or three times a year. Always happy to meet up with someone to make it a group. Nice! From what I remember from Lloyd, the only thing that gets swapped is the third member. That is a question for the guys on 4x4 Wire. I honestly don't remember a lot of the details there. Been a LONG time since that's been a worry for me. Edward
|
|
|
Post by jay4x4 on Sept 20, 2014 2:29:57 GMT -5
Going to have to keep this one a little short because I am on my phone, but figure might as well keep the ball rolling.
Ya the trail ratings we have are a bit strange. Haven't encountered the number system yet but seems to do a better job than having something a bit more generalized.
Yeah, you really need a dedicated camera person who doesn't mind hoping out at every obstacle.
Looks like I'm going to have to head over to the wire. Really interested in getting new x-case gears and a rear locker. The tire size I'm looking for is 255/85/16. Right now I have 265/75/16. Interesting enough I was just reading an article about airing down and how a tall skinny 33 is better than a wide one. That being because your track doesn't so much get wider but longer.
I'm going to look into that maze thing. For some reason I was thinking it was an event of some sort. I really need to get my sliders done. There have been numerous times now if I had something I could use to swivel on or even just get bashed so I can take a better line. Oh speaking of sidewalls, I took a look at mine and they are standard load 116t...seem really flexy and soft...maybe too soft.
Well I should be going wheeling again Sunday, I'll try to have a buddy take some pics or video. No promises lol. The only crappy thing is I'm going with my buddy with the tundra, which is nice cause he's always willing to go, but being 2wd and the size of a peterbilt we cant do anything too fun. Funny cause I've done lots in 2wd that he has trouble, but I have showed him it's because he doesn't have weight over his huge 35" M/Ts.
Anyways whence I get on laptop I'll add more.
=)
|
|
|
Post by jay4x4 on Sept 27, 2014 23:14:36 GMT -5
dirtopia.com/wiki/4WD_Trail_RatingFound what seems to be a trail ratings description so you can compare a black Diamond 1 to the 1-10 rating, but still leaves me the question where that double red diamond came from.
|
|
|
Post by ES_97Sport on Sept 30, 2014 19:46:02 GMT -5
... Looks like I'm going to have to head over to the wire. Really interested in getting new x-case gears and a rear locker. The tire size I'm looking for is 255/85/16. Right now I have 265/75/16. Interesting enough I was just reading an article about airing down and how a tall skinny 33 is better than a wide one. That being because your track doesn't so much get wider but longer. Hmmm. So, a 31.7"ish to a 33"? That'll be a good jump. I've read that. I'm not sure I agree. The problem with that concept as they write in the articles is that its extremely simplified. There are all kinds of terrain, all kinds of tires and all kinds of tire compounds. For instance, that won't work in the snow if its deep and you're trying to float. Skinny tires cut through - which is what you want if you're trying to get to the base where you can get traction. If there is NO base - as frequently is the case when snow wheeling - you want to stay on top. Cutting through means you'll just sink until the entire body is sitting on the snow like a big toboggan. Been there, done that - you don't want to try this one. Same applies to sand and mud. Big mud trucks only use skinny tires when they're trying to get though to the base where they get better traction, otherwise its all about flotation. Rock crawling is more like drag racing. Its about contact patch and tire compound and the amount of downward force applied. A big, long, wide contact patch with a really soft, sticky compound with not as much force applied will stomp a skinny long contact patch with a lot of force applied. There is a reason (well, several) drag tires are the way they are. Top fuel dragsters don't run skinny tires in the back even though the downward force per square inch would be increased. This is all a giant balancing act, of course. There are situations where you want want you described. Actually, for a general purpose expedition type vehicle that sees a lot of road - definitely. Wide tires are not efficient from a fuel mileage perspective, they don't tend to wear as well and they certainly don't drive as well especially at speed. But, for a harder core vehicle, no that won't work. There is a reason I can drive through snow 4-5'+ deep, and there's also a reason why on the rocks I don't loose traction like everyone - including people running 35" skinny's - else. In deep snow you want as big a patch - square NOT rectangular - as you can get. On the rocks you want the stickiest compound tire there is, the flexyest carcass to put that contact patch to the rock, and the biggest (correct sized) contact patch you can get. 'biggest contact patch' is not guesswork. The best size contact patch can be calculated mathematically. I don't mess with this as I'm not racing anymore but anyone that races for real for sure calculates this. BTW, MY track gets wider. My choice of tire, tire size and rim dimensions were based on giving me a skinny, narrow profile when aired up on the road and a wide, square profile when aired down for the trail. And, you guys probably think I just randomly picked my tires and rims out of a hat. Did some more research on the Maze and took a test run Friday down from Green River to Goblin Valley via I-70 and the Little Grand Canyon cut off. Figured out I had to order another 5 gal gas can and another 5 gallon water can. Sigh. Long way in and out. Yep, those guys at All-Pro are geniuses. That is the best idea I think they've come up with. Three ply or four ply? LOL!!! Yea, some of the guys here wheel 1/2 pickups. Makes for interesting times. Yea, that's where the lbs per sqr inch thing is REALLY obvious. Not enough - bad. Too much - bad. Got to get in that middle. Tell him to dump 800 lbs of gear in the back. That'll fix the problem. Edward
|
|
|
Post by jay4x4 on Oct 3, 2014 23:56:41 GMT -5
Bust busy busy...working on my skid plate. Anywho, I guess it all comes down to what you mentioned earlier about build your vehicle to the terrain and choose tires for the type of off roading you will be doing..Still looking at options although it will be a while because my current set up has lots of life on it. Oh yeah I discovered that I made a mistake and I do not have 4.64 gears but instead have 4.9s!! . With that being said if I add a body lift, yeah I know, could I run a similar tire set up as you? 35x12.5? I know you said bigger isn't always better but with the rocks and sand in so cal the added clearance and width would be beneficial and it seems the full size monteros run them with 4.9s with no problems. I looked on 4x4extremesports for info on cosports? vehicle but didn't find anything. Am I thinking of the right person who ran 35s with IFS? without the 5k sun kit. In any case I am glad to know that I had better axle gears and all I need to do is save up for the 3.15:1 transfer gears, I would love a swap with a doubler though but I am really dreaming now..OHH found a pic of your sport stuck in quicksand on pirate4x4 while I was researching stuff.....you're right, I did not imagine it looking like that lol. The maze sounds like a long distance trip, or is it just slow going? 10Gals of gas? that is what I am planning to bring on my mojave trip, whenever I get time, probably over kill but you never know out there. I already have some nice BPA free 7 gal water tanks that have a spigot built into the cap, hides when you don't need it. As so my sliders, going to be a while because been busy with work and my skid plate. I have them for sale on craigslist but no bites, so I think I am just going to bash those up in the meantime, nothing serious but not worrying about hitting them on tight spots. haha it is a very nice truck but ya he is planning to add a drawer in the back and a camper shell, I think. he doesn't have a full size spare either so I am sure that will ad a good amount of weight too. I will say that at the end of the day it just makes me love my sport that much more knowing that I have a bigger rear axle and better gears than that monster truck...don't get me wrong its a really nice truck and I would love to have one like it, but when we go out you can really see where it separates looks from function.
|
|
|
Post by ES_97Sport on Oct 6, 2014 18:11:23 GMT -5
... I guess it all comes down to what you mentioned earlier about build your vehicle to the terrain and choose tires for the type of off roading you will be doing..Still looking at options although it will be a while because my current set up has lots of life on it. Yea, makes a ton of difference. I always giggle when I read the tire and airing down write ups. They always say, 'this is what you should do', but never under what conditions. I might have been reading the same one you did a couple weeks ago and I thought, well, that's great, but that won't ever work when I'm snow wheeling. I'd be great on the highway but I have pavement to cut down to. What happens when I'm in 6-8' of snow? If I start cutting down, I'm stuck. Literally. I don't know. I come at a lot of this stuff from a different perspective. Too much drag racing and road racing in the family. Traction is a huge thing when you're running 600-800 HP engines. A lot of the physics are the same, although I don't think a lot of people in the wheeling world realize that. With link suspensions some of the thinking has started trickling into the 4WD world in the last 8-10 years, but a lot of what I learned in the 80's and was old and well known even then is still the totally new incredible hotness. Holy cow. Link suspensions? I learned about those in like '85/'86. You'd think that the 4WD world just invented them 10 years ago. Traction isn't brain surgery. Well, at least not on our vehicles. You start running a 4-link or 3-link ... well, that's a different story. Figure out what you're going to travel on and how much. 30% highway/70% off road? 80% highway/20% off road? Figure out what the surface will be for both and figure in if you need to deal with snow/ice/rain. Take a hard, objective look at your vehicles deficiencies - both on and off road. Then prioritize. What's most important? Highway or off road? Snow or dry pavement? Some of the things that I considered when choosing: I'm in the 70/30ish range of highway/off road and do around 30,000/35,000 +/- miles a year. So, something comfortable with relatively good road manners. in other words, not an 8-ply TSL bias ply. I run wide tires on the highway (35x12.5) - and I do a LOT of highway - and while we don't get a lot of rain, it doesn't take much with a big fat tire to run into issues. I also deal with a lot of slush in the winter. A LOT of slush. Therefore I chose a directional tire - something that would perform very well in wet, sloppy conditions. I almost never, ever, ever have anything even vaguely resembling mud so a true 'mud' tire wasn't necessary. We actually have winter in CO. Sometimes. I don't want to be swapping 35" tires around to deal with ice on the roads. That's just yet another set of expensive tires and rims to maintain and that I have to swap to go wheeling if I feel like it between about November and May. PITA. So, a really soft compound tire that STAYS really soft and sticky in sub-freezing temps was required. And a good 6-ply because with all the crap strewn on our highways, I didn't want to have to change a tire once a month. At the time I didn't have lockers and I'm in CO - home of the glass smooth granite from hell with a nice dusting of ground up granite sand - and the occasional rain storm just to make things REALLY slick. Blea! Super sticky is a good band-aid if I could pair it with a lot of articulation. This is one problem that is only addressable by the tire compound. Nothing else works - not sipeing, tread design, nothing. Tire companies can talk all they want about grabbing edges, suction from sipeing, etc., but the compound is all. Previous experience with stiff carcass tires on both trucks and cars, off road and racing taught me that no tread or compound works if it isn't applied to the surface and generally the more surface you can apply it to, the better off your are. Also, snow wheeling a 6000 lb vehicle requires a LOT of flotation and the only way that happens is if the tire spreads out when you drop the tire pressure to around 4-8 psi. If it doesn't turn into a giant snowshoe at that point then it doesn't work. So, a soft carcass was wanted. Then I figured out what I could give up or live with to meet my criteria. 'cause you're never going to get the perfect tire. I figured 3-ply sidewalls were ok. Not great, but I could live with it. I don't have a lot of sticks and crud to deal with off road and that would be the big worry. A little wishy-washy on the highway but easily liveable. The supper soft and sticky compound means decreased tire life. How decreased? I get about 13 months a set. Well that sucks, but again, to get what I want above, there have to be concessions, and this one I'm really not willing to give up. A good chunk of the performance of my truck both on and off the highway has to do with the tread compound. Too much wheeling to give up having an M/T and the winters are too unpredictable when it comes to snow fall. Could be 65 today and 3' of snow tomorrow and I have to be able to get to the office rain, sleet, snow or Prius. After I figured out all that, I just started searching for a tire that fit the bill. It took me a long time because its hard to find tires that fit my criteria and some things you can't get information on, like the tire compound. I had to actually FIND a set of Geolandar M/Ts and test the compound personally to figure out if they were soft, hard, or what. But, like I said, none of this is brain surgery. You need to be honest with yourself about your requirements and your uses and you need to know how your vehicle behaves both on and off road, though. You can't sham yourself into believing you're doing 80% off road in the mud while only doing 10% in the rocks and expect to be happy with what you buy. BTW, I went though one set before I settled on the Yokohamas. I was in a hurry and didn't follow my own advice and spent $800 on a brand new set of 31" BFG A/Ts for my - then - stock '97. What was to become 'the big Sport'. They lasted 6 months before I traded them straight across for a set of used 31" Geolandar M/Ts - my first set. They did nothing good. Almost everything bad. Only a couple things kinda ok, more or less. The most horrible vehicle to tire match in the history of automobiles. And I was so happy to see them go even though they only had about 2-3K miles on them. Do your research. Like you said, you have a set that'll be there for a while. Take your time and get what'll really work for the long run. Oh, and BTW, don't listen to your friends. Follow what I said above and get what works for you, not what everyone thinks will work. If you listen to your friends you'll end up with a set of Thornbirds and then everyone on Pirate will make fun of you. LOL! Ouch. Well, that sucks. I hate to be the one to say it but you are SOL. The only thing up is 5.13 and 5.29. Neither of which you will ever find in the US. Yea, that was Eric and his '98. He's the only other person I know that ran 35"s on IFS. He went over to the dark side years ago. He wheels a Tacoma now. I don't know. If the rear is coil sprung, I'd say no. I don't remember if you have a '97-'99 or a '00-'05. The Montero guys mostly run 3.5L engines, so keep that in mind, but I don't see you having any issues at that altitude with a 3.0L and 4.90s. It shouldn't affect your mileage or the ECM/PCM too much. Yea, the 4.90s will help you out a lot. The 35"s really didn't work very well on the 4.30s the old A/Ts came with. The dual t-case is the sweetness. Once you drive a 3 speed, you'll NEVER go back. LOL!! I was trying to explain this to the tech that drives a truggy and a couple LandCrushers the other day and how I'm totally spoiled and he just didn't get it. That's the problem, though, and I have to admit I was the same way. I never really understood what the Atlas and Stak guys were always raving about - until I installed the same ratio setup in my big Sport. It sounds ridiculous, but it completely changes how you wheel. The level of driving control and precision just skyrockets. I wouldn't go back to seriously wheeling with a single speed t-case. Which sucks 'cause I don't think they make anything for the LC which is what I've pretty much settled on for my big Sport replacement. Probably have to have someone rip the drive train out to get the right transmission so I can get a 3-speed t-case or a Toy doubler or something. Sigh. LOL! Yea, that there is the real thing. Hopefully, that's also the LAST time I ever do that. Long distance. According to what I've read it's 145 miles from Hite, Green River or Hanksville - only gas stations remotely around there - to the Doll House, which is supposed to be the furthest into the park you can get. SO, that means 290 miles round trip +/-. Presumably you'd want to do more than drive straight in and out - so, add more '+'s. From Green River it's about 1/3 of the way highway so 65 Mph, then you turn off on to gravel to the park entrance and then onto the Flint trail. Last I was on the 'road' to the park, it wasn't really bad but 20-30 Mph was about the max and you couldn't always do that. The park is 4WD and slow going. According to what I've seen and read, you could expect 4LO 1st or 2nd gear most of the way - 30/40+ one way. Probably not quite so slow for me, but my big Sport is like driving a Baja truck on most UT trails. That thing soaks up the bumps pretty well. I figured 15 MPG * 17 gallons = 255 + (3*5 gal cans) = 480 - 20% for off road gives me a range of 384 miles. That's somewhat pessimistic, but not too much. I'll probably add a fourth 5 gal can since I have four now if I can find room. I picked up two more 5 gal water cans so that'll give me 16 gallons of water. 1 gal per day per person is the minimum recommended for the desert and that ONLY covers human consumption. That doesn't cover cooking or whatever minimal washing. The problem with these long distance trips to places like to the Maze is you can get stuck in there for days. The Maze has three ways in but all three are subject to closure and if one is closed, odds are all three will be. The Flint trail is bad clay. One good rain storm and you have to wait for maybe several days before the road drys enough to get back out. My big Sport does pretty good, but if I have to start slogging it out in 4WD LO-LO for 40-50 miles its going to take a lot of time and a LOT of gas. I've noticed that the part serviced has updated their web pages to stress 'self recovery'. What that means is if you get stuck, broke down, whatever, don't come a call'n us. We'll get to you when we get to you. Which means you have to either be able to take care of yourself or you better be able to survive for several days to a week or more before they can get to you. AND, all costs on their part are now the responsibility of the rescuee. I liked the blurb about how much it could cost if they have to involve a helicopter. IMHO, there's no such think as 'overkill'. Maybe that's a throwback overkill to my 'younger days' but when there isn't anyone to rely on but yourself and what you have, you really do have to pack everything and the kitchen sink, too. Couple of the guys think I'm nuts that I carry a vise now, but my little break down last year leaving me stranded because I couldn't get a tie rod end out could have been a major catastrophe had that happened in UT. Yep, the looks vs. function thing comes up occasionally here, too. Mine might not look like much anymore. Its certainly not a show piece anymore. But, everything works and serves a purpose and when the chips are down, it'll embarrass the crap out of the showroom fresh vehicles with $20K of miscellaneous gee-gaws. I HATE the hunter orange color of my diff covers. I think they look like crap. But, I've bashed them on granite faces with nothing more than a minor scuff to show for it. I never worry about knocking a cover into a ring gear. Which brings up a funny I saw. Guy with a jacked new up Jeep Wrangler with more gee-gaws than I can recount had the aluminum fined black and silver differential covers like they put on tow vehicles to help cool the differentials. 37" M/Ts, racks, snorkel ... the list goes on. Looked like a $4-5K 6" lift. I would pay money to see that thing off road once when he hit the front diff cover on a rock. LOL!!! The rear axle thing isn't that big a deal. Axles are blown WAY out of proportion. I run a Dana 44 in the rear from Currie. In a 5700-5800 lb vehicle that I load up with 800 lbs of gear and supplies not counting passengers. The most its weighed in at I think, counting passengers is about 7000 lbs. And I wheel that in Moab (worst possible surface I could pick, even if I tried) with front and rear lockers. It took 16 years to finally wear out the bearings. Same ring and pinion, same shafts and same housing. The guys at Currie won't sell me a new one - I tried several times, two shops tried - because, they say, and I quote, "That's not a big enough axle for my vehicle." I KNOW it is. Everyone here in Denver KNOWS it is. And, I've proven it over time. But, they'll sell a 60 which is total overkill for almost exactly the same cost. Unless you're crazy or racing or running HUGE tires (over 35"s) it just doesn't really make a difference. Edward
|
|
|
Post by jay4x4 on Oct 10, 2014 15:42:54 GMT -5
Finally finished my skid plate. now just need sliders and I should be good for a while. Its going to take me a while to figure out what tire I need by the sounds of this, which I kind of figured, Honestly Id say I do about 80/20 roads/off road. Maybe 70/30, But I would say out of the 20/30% maybe 5-10% of that would be technical terrain. The rest is just dirt roads/fire roads to go hiking or hunting. I have a few tires in mind but I also need to settle on a size as well so that makes it worse lol.
As for this 35s business, I have the 3.5L with 4.9s but am coil sprung. so that may be the only problem although I will say it sure looks like I can do it in the rear with the OME HD coils, the front is what I am a bit worried about. In all honestly I kind of don't want to go to 35s if they are more hassle than its worth.
The doubler ohh man If I had the time and money. Its almost cheating, if there is such a thing, at how much a improvement it is. I have only been in one vehicle and seen videos but man some of these guys don't use any throttle and can slowly and precisely go up without bouncing around and crap, pretty much what you were mentioning earlier .
Your maze planning sounds similar to what I am trying to figure out when I go explore the Mojave, not just the main road. Yeah I would say 4 gas cans. That is a lot of miles and then you go off road with 4LO and such. As you said, "There is no such thing as overkill" and I always like to think so when it comes to safety. I rather be coming home with two full gas can than to run low and have to turn around and scrap a whole trip because I didn't want to spend an extra $60 and carry an extra tank or two. Have you ever thought of investing in a SAT phone? not sure if you said you had one, but seeing as you go out A LOT lol. wouldn't be a bad deal. I am thinking of getting one or one of those SPOT emergency gps beacons. I still have to look at how much those plans cost maybe just pay for one month when I decide to go out then let it sit.
My sport isn't as mean looking as yours so I don't really get any respect. Even the guys at 4wheelparts think I am fixing an odd vehicle. Axle size and gears might not mean much but I use it as defense when people ask me why the heck would I try to fix up a montero sport, even though in other parts of the world they kick ***. Sounds like a sweet Wrangler lol its always the JKs. I see lots of those here. I live in an area where people have some money, I don't, and the place is littered with huge trucks and jeeps with everything you can buy for it. Infact my daughter's school has a lot of those yuppies. Seen a "soccer mom" with a 4DR JK on what appears to be on 35s. looks clean because it doesn't really have anything else on it...except for a sticker that say's, "don't follow me, you wont make it". I have yet to see any form of dirt on it. They could wash it all the time but I highly doubt it.. I pretty much get laughed out, well more like given funny looks when they pull up next to me in their Wrangler on 44s with no sliders as if they are looking down at me, well technically they are lol. I have a neighbor with a 4runner like that. really nice though. almost looks like he does take it out. mostly functional items but Ive never seen any dirt on it(tires) but he does ride bikes so I think he just uses it to get to trails. which doesn't require a vehicle like that. before I end this I will say I am not a judgmental person and if they want to just have something that looks cool, then by all means go for it, its your money but don't go putting my vehicle down because it doesn't have every gadget and gizmo that you can buy. My bumper has zip ties and fiberglass on it, numerous dents, looks like someone took a rake and pinstriped the hell out of it but that comes with the territory of pushing your vehicle off road and not just a dirt road. I actually thought of putting a "not a mall crawler sticker" on mine just to see what people say when you deliberately park next to my sport with their $80-$100k trucks to show it off or what not.
oh one last time. going out again this Saturday to camp and wheel a bit. I am not promising anything but will try to get some pics and video with my gopro. Its just a Pain in the *** to run out and set up a camera then run back and get in the vehicle. I will have passengers but you know how that goes.
|
|
|
Post by ES_97Sport on Oct 15, 2014 18:00:22 GMT -5
Finally finished my skid plate. now just need sliders and I should be good for a while. Its going to take me a while to figure out what tire I need by the sounds of this, which I kind of figured, Honestly Id say I do about 80/20 roads/off road. Maybe 70/30, But I would say out of the 20/30% maybe 5-10% of that would be technical terrain. The rest is just dirt roads/fire roads to go hiking or hunting. I have a few tires in mind but I also need to settle on a size as well so that makes it worse lol. Skid plate the hell out of it. In this, you're going in the right direction and this gives you the ability to use smaller tires while not having to worry about tearing stuff off the bottom. OH, BTW, I forgot!!! Under the body there is a 'damper' hanging off the t-case. REMOVE IT if its still there. Take the bracket off if the block is gone. You don't want to hang on that and you don't want to hit that on something or you'll crack a case. You weren't around when I broke the t-cases off the transmission on top of Elephant Hill. That sucked. Given that, if it were me, I'd go with a good skinny, tall A/T. That would give you the best pavement behavior. Something like a 32/33"x10.5" on a 8" steel rim - no bigger than a 33". If you do a 2" body lift with that, you'll have plenty of clearance and won't have to dork around getting "JUST THE RIGHT RIM", which can be a PITA and expensive. If you're around mud and snow/slush, look for an aggressive A/T and make sure it does a very good job of self-evacuating (so the exact opposite of a BFG A/T!!!). It may not look as 'cool' as Thornbirds, but it'll work and work well and be relatively inexpensive to maintain - both tires and drive train/steering wear and tear. If you really feel you need an aggressive M/T tread then look for a good M/T - but don't get carried away. A/Ts are more fuel efficient and last longer - M/Ts in general are worse and some are REALLY bad. Rule of thumb - more aggressive the M/T tread and the stiffer the carcass the worse the driveability and the wore the fuel efficiency. My Yoko M/T tread isn't that aggressive for a M/T, and I've never had an issue with that and I don't think there's anything they haven't been in by now. They're 'aggressive enough', and that's what you want. If you're dealing with a lot of loose broken rock, gravel, dirt, sand, what-have-you, and when you need aggressive tread you REALLY need aggressive tread, then I'd suggest a 32/33"x12.5" on a 9" steel rim. 8" will work, but 9" would be better. 10" is too wide and will cut down on your rim protection, IMHO, unduly. If you're climbing around on a lot of rock (boulders/slick rock), then make sure they're sticky. I don't mean 'REALLY aggressive tread' - I do mean 'REALLY need aggressive tread'. See last sentence in previous paragraph. Since you'll have the time to research this, figure out what the max is for how far you can out-board the tires. If you can change the rim off-set to move the rims/tires out 1.5" a side (just a random example), this will give you 3" wider stance and that is going to make a WORLD of difference in stability! With a 2" body lift and 32/33"x10.5"s I'm reasonably sure you could do 1.5". It may put more stress on your wheel bearings, and to a lesser extent the steering parts, but its way more than worth the trade. BTW, in Moab on slick rock and sand - which is the same for about 95% of southern UT - you're better off with a good set of sticky A/Ts. Wide, sticky A/Ts. Also, keep in mind, that the more agressive the tread, the more likely you are to 'dig in' which is a BAD thing in deep sand/snow. Again, see last sentence in 4th previous paragraph. You're going to have to get the body up no matter what. Having coils is going to make this harder than with leafs. And, its going to be even harder if you're trying to fit 35"s. I just don't see the point. Put good protection in place, and use it. That's what its there for. Honestly, there is NOTHING I could do with 35"s that Eric couldn't do with 33"s or that I can't with 35"s that others can do with 37"s. There really just isn't enough difference. This isn't like going from 33"s to 37"s. I would strongly suggest not wasting your money. 35" anythings are God awful expensive for what you get. LOL!!! I'm good with cheating in this case. Almost no one is running what I run in the drive line so if you've been in a 3-speed t-case vehicle its not even as low as mine. Lo-Lo-Lo is 10.88:1, 1st gear is 3.93:1 and I'm running 5.38s in the diffs with 35"s. I have a crawl ratio of almost 230:1. It requires NO throttle in Lo-Lo-Lo 1st or 2nd. At idle (about 700RPM) it goes about 7" a second. Totally unnecessary most of the time. I use Lo-Lo which is 4:1 (Terra Low231) and THAT'S a lot slower than all the Jeeps I wheel with with 4:1 'cause they're running 4.11:1 or 4.56:1 in the axles with larger diameter tires. But, for very technical things without a spotter, or very tippy/bouncy obstacles where my height is a liability and you won't want the thing to start rocking back and forth, its awesome!!! One of the places I use this regularly is Horse Creek towards the top where there's a cliff overhang in the wash and I have to go in like this / and only have a couple inches to spare at the top side. With taller gearing I'd go in too fast and the body would rock into the overhang doing not nice things. Pickle Gulch is the same way, as is the chute on Lockhart Basin - 'cept Lockhart tries to take out both sides at once. Doesn't do any good for loose rock, snow, mud, but negotiating boulders is a breeze. If you want to work towards something - forget 35"s and work towards a doubler. Seriously! In hindsight, I can't count the number of times I did damage that could have been easily avoided with lower gearing. I also can't count the number of times I SHOULD have flipped it on its roof having to use the velocity method to get through because I didn't have lower gears to go to. Yea, if you get a chance look up other's Maze trips on the 'web. I've run across a dozen that have said how they couldn't do what they wanted or had to cut the trip short and one yesterday that ran out of gas 15 miles from Hanksville on the way out. NO ONE was happy in any of their stories. That's what I figure. If I don't use it, well, then I don't, but God help you if you need it and don't have it. According to my calculations, I'm looking at one way 150 miles. No stops. No side trips. Nothing. In and out and that's it. Which sounds kinda boring to me. All three entrances are the same distance and if it rains, at least two will probably be impassable for an indeterminate period of time and if you pick the wrong one you just rack up more miles. So, yea, you have to be prepared. The FS and park service has been posting new blurbs that if they have to come rescue your butt, it'll cost. You pay all recovery costs they incur. This isn't just for Moab, it's a FS/PS thing. They're really beating on people about this. And it can take several days to a week or more maybe. Basically, what they way is if you don't want to sit for a month while we get around to you, make sure you can get yourself out. Several years ago some duffus took his vehicle off road - literally - and got stuck. Last I heard he'd racked up about $18,000 in recovery costs. You really don't want the gov to get involved in rescuing you if you can help it. I also heard a rumor that last year it ran $4000 to haul someone out here in CO. Yep. No, I don't have one but I will for the trip probably. Cell is pretty reliable even way out as long as you're not in a canyon. But, yea, I've considered it. Its a very good idea if you're going out with just your vehicle and no one along for backup. My X, the kids and I were out in '06 on White Rim and my stepdaughter and I got food poisoning (stay away from the Mexican restaurant in Green River). My stepdaughter wasn't as bad, but I was so bad I couldn't drive. If it were just me and that happened somewhere like the Swell or Maze I would have been in big trouble. Took three days before I could get out of bed. LOL!! Get used to it. I went through that for years and years. I STILL get a little flack from Jeep guys - you know, because its not a 'Jeep'. :rolleyes: The Toy poser crowd is the worst here in CO. Specifically the FJ guys. They ALL (including my X) seem to think they drive monster rock crawlers. Interesting because none I ever see look like they've been off pavement. But, I think it goes with the name. I tell someone I drive a Montero Sport and off road it, and I think that translates into 'Subaru station wagon' in their head. I've had to send half a dozen people out to the parking lot to look at what I drive to get them to take me seriously just this year. No one wheels Montero Sports or even Monteros really, so no one even considers them as an off road vehicle. Hence where the attitude comes from I think. Its STILL a lot of fun to kick their butts on the trail, though! I always point out how many OTHER vehicles I've had to haul out of various situations and the trails I've done that their JKs, whatever couldn't. THAT usually shuts them up right quick. Hacket and Longwater were great for that back in the day. EVERYONE that wheeled anything knew those trails so pointing out I'd done those 30 times blindfolded made a big difference in opinions. Yep, wanna see pics! Skid plate especially! Edward
|
|
|
Post by jay4x4 on Oct 16, 2014 18:13:33 GMT -5
I am thinking about sticking with the 255/85/16s probably go with cooper ST MAX tires. I have good exp with previous tires from them, decently aggressive tire. Be nice on pavement and pretty decent off road. I don't have anything close to southern mud and the sand I do go on isn't too crazy, I do just fine with my 265/75/16s. I gave up the idea of 35's after it seemed that their isn't much benefit from 33's. Only place Ive heard people keep saying this always go bigger is on jeep forums lol. I don't really have a need for M/Ts but lots of people run it here, most guys who run crazy M/Ts here are the big trucks with 20in wheels and never leave pavement lol. Also another reason is I don't want to do a body lift at all. As for gearing I don't know if I should get those 3.15:1 gears for my case or just try swap another case like you did, both cost a good amount but one would have to be modified. I have started to notice how crappy my 4Lo set up is. I have looked on your site and I am not sure how much work it will be. Funny you mention that thing about the maze I think I just read that too somewhere on another forum. If you have cell signal more of the way then yeah I wouldn't bother. I've run into lots of spots without it though, but haven't done a big trip yet. I will be sure to stay clear of the Mexican place if I ever make my way there. I have gotten it once before and cant imagine being out on a trip and that happen. Yeah, I get a lot of weird looks and the typical "Montero Sport??" when I go to the parts counter. I haven't gained much bragging rights yet, if that's what it would be called, but I did pull my friends ZJ out of some mud but later he ended up having to pull me out haha. Oh by the way I am looking into TrailGear sliders, They come with the kickout and legs in parts so you can pretty much weld it on to your vehicle however you need to, just need to choose length....only problem is that I think for my size they only come with 3 legs so I will want to get a 4th. Here is a Pic of my skid plate. not the best work but works. I found a build on ExpeditionPortal and he bolted his skidplate to the subframe bolts up front, That's what I did I strengthen the rear mounting points and just used those. The plate is either 11 gauge or 8 gauge I don't recall, but I am able to jack up the sport without it bending or bowing.
|
|
|
Post by ES_97Sport on Oct 17, 2014 19:22:12 GMT -5
I am thinking about sticking with the 255/85/16s probably go with cooper ST MAX tires. Nice! 33"s are a good size. Haven't done anything with the Coopers. I don't think I even know anyone except my tire guy that runs them on his Dodge 3000. I think it's the same ones you're looking at. He seems pretty happy with them but that's a little different vehicle that we have. It isn't just the Jeep forums and usually its just the poser crowd that parrots that. The ever bigger diameter tire is just like the you can never have enough lift that's been steadily dieing off over the last decade. I've been very happy to see that on Pirate the last 6-8 years. It takes a while for people to get it through their heads that after a certain point more is just a liability. Lift is one thing, but TIRES are a whole different ball game. Lift doesn't particularly increase stress on parts. Tires and rims on the other hand do. There's a huge difference in the stress put on gear, axles, suspension, and drive train between a 28", a 35" and a 44" (and larger). My stock tire/rim combo is about 55lbs. My 35" is about 90lbs. A 44" Bogger is about 300lbs. The amount of force larger tire/rim combos exert on things like steering components, axle shafts, ball joints, housings, etc. is scary. And not 'scary' in a good way, either. I don't have the time and a forum page is a really hard place to explain and demonstrate how larger tires actually work for you but there is a ton of info on Pirate. This goes above and beyond the simple bigger tire = more clearance - which is what 99% of the population think of when bigger tires are mentioned. Tire diameters are NOT solely about clearance. Its interesting, but when I was working out the geometry on the 3-link for my little Sport, I found that its possible depending on your suspension geometry to install larger diameter tires and actually end up WORSE off than you were. Simply, the idea is, of course, that you want a bigger tire to climb over a bigger obstacle. This works unless the obstacle is higher than the center-line of the hub - as an example, if you push your tire up against a 3' vertical surface (step). So what happens is the vehicle stops (stalls) because it can't push through (keep going). 1) It is possible to design (or have) a geometry that changes the direction of the force from -->| to ^|. Basically, when the tire contacts the vertical surface, the geometry changes the direction of the force from pushing against the wall to pushing up the wall. You guys see YouTube videos of buggies hitting a vertical wall and just climbing straight up without stopping? This principal in action. Look for vehicles where when the front wheels contact the wall the nose of the vehicle squats. 2) This also works in inverse. The geometry can be such that when the tire contacts the vertical surface the force pushes the tire downwards. You have to look carefully but if you watch you can see videos where when the front tires hit a wall they look like they're trying to dig under the wall - they refuse to climb up and over and instead try to climb down and under. Look for vehicles where when the front wheels contact the wall the nose of the vehicle lifts. Depending on the manufacturer's design, this is why some vehicles seem to climb over stuff inordinately well while a virtually identical vehicle from a different manufacturer can't climb over gutter. A practical real world example is snow. Some vehicles (including cars) do very well in deep snow while some can't go through snow more than a few inches deep. To simplify this (a lot) vehicles that do very well in snow above hub center line typically are #1, while the ones that do progressively worse and then get stuck when the snow approaches hub center line are #2. Changing the size of the tire can require changes in the suspension to clear the new tires. As we've been talking about tightening up the torsion bars to raise the front to clear the tires. The problem is that more often than not this changes the geometry. So, for example, adding larger diameter tires and tightening up the torsion bars for clearance can change the geometry from an up and over to a down and under. The big issue here is that #1 does not bind the drive train while #2 can and usually does. This binding is only related to tire diameter indirectly in that it caused a change in geometry - which is the real problem. So, if the vehicle keeps pushing against a wall or trying to dig under it and the tires don't slip, or slip and then catch, something's going to break eventually. M/Ts are one of those things like lockers and insurance. You never need them until you REALLY need them. I rarely really need M/Ts - especially in UT - but here in CO in the winter ... well, you just never know what the hell is going to happen. When we get dumped on, we REALLY get dumped on and 3-4' of snow is when you REALLY, REALLY need M/Ts. Over everyone that I wheel with or have wheeled with I'd say 70% run A/Ts and - except for the people running BFG A/Ts - no one has ever had to turn back because of their tires. I shouldn't bash on the BFGs so much. They suck serious pond water in snow, slush, mud, and rain of any depth but they rock out loud on slick rock. They're 'ok' on sand - no way can they compare to my Yoko A/Ts and M/Ts. They just don't have very good flotation and they're don't self-evacuate worth a damn. Disclaimer: I don't like body lifts. They put stress on body mounts and in general just rub me the wrong way. I am and always have been a diehard suspension lift devotee. BUT, I'll be the fist to say they have their place. Which brings me to ... "Um, why???". You could be the poster child for all the reasons TO DO a body lift. They're easier than suspension lifts - especially on yours. You need the extra fender well clearance for the 33"s and this is the simplest way to get it. It doesn't' change ANY geometry - reread the rest of my post above if you have to ask why this is a good thing. It doesn't change the CG as much as a suspension lift - which is a VERY good thing on our overweight pigs. I guess I'm confused. You don't because you don't like them, don't wanna, or don't think you need one? As for the last, I'd suggest 1.5-2" (probably a 1.5" would be enough) and then outboard the tires like I suggested in the previous post. You may not NEED M/Ts, but you NEED to do something about the fact our vehicles are very top heavy and very tippy. And you're on your way to making yours worse. You want to be able to stuff those tires and tightening up the torsion bars makes that more difficult. If you do a body lift, you can have the clearance to stuff the tires without doing bad things to your articulation by stiffening up the suspension. Frankly, Sport articulation in the front sucks - don't make it worse. Gonna get worse with the 33"s, too. I would strongly suggest NOT doing the 3.15s. Save your money. You can kill a couple birds with a dual setup and they're NOT that expensive. Besides getting awesome crazy gearing, you get rid of the stock front and rear drive shafts. You go to a fixed yoke setup with slip drive shafts. That means you can take either drive shaft out and drive on one shaft. This is a good thing if you blow a u-joint and have to pull a drive shaft to get the vehicle moving. It also gets you out of having to replace slip yokes in the rear. You'll have a stronger drive shaft for the front - not that that probably matters a whole lot but its nice. The other part is I've gone through three t-cases. I killed one - wrong grade oil. They ARE NOT cheap to fix, they're not plentiful and they're huge and heavy. My entire dual setup is shorter than the stock '97 t-case and weighs less. There are 10s of millions of NP231s in so many configurations I can't count that high. They're not any weaker than ours - both use a chain drive. Parts are everywhere and they're so plentiful that shops give stuff away to get rid of it. I got several doubler parts for free - they said they weren't worth charging for. You have 2.72:1 - which is standard - and can go with Terra Low231 which is 4:1. OR, you can go 2:72 and 2:72 and have a two speed t-case instead of a 3 speed. And if you want to go to a 3-speed with the Terra later, you can and NOTHING CHANGES. You don't start over or change anything - just take the assembly out, put the Low231 into the rear case, reassemble and put it back in. You probably should stick with 2.72/2.72 since you have an auto - 10.88 probably wouldn't even be usable in yours. BTW, Jeep sells brand new NP231 t-cases - this is the dealership - for less than $800. Complete t-case. A used - in dubious condition - Mitsu case can run you up to that much. Yes, its kinda expensive, but that's relative. It cuts down on wear and tear on the vehicle but the amount will depend on how much you wheel. Usually, though, people start lite and then get more and more crazy. You will probably not wheel less on easier stuff AFTER you get your Sport all built. Also, this isn't done in a big chunk. You can do all this over time and then when it's ready put it in. In fact, you kinda have to if you're going to do it yourself. You can get the doubler kit, get a t-case, rebuild the t-case and do what you want to it, then build the doubler and do what you want to that, then do your brackets and so on. It'll take time to get everything together so if you plan this for like a 2 year project it's a LOT easier to afford. Not that I couldn't afford it, but I took 2 years to do mine because i wanted everything exactly correct and didn't want to have to re-do anything. And, things like getting case halves surfaced, brackets made, finding the right parts, deciding what kind of shifter I wanted, getting stuff like the speedo box/wires/connectors, hose fittings and sight tubes installed takes time. None of this is brain surgery but there's a LOT of little pieces that you have to get in order. The only truly expensive part is the drive shafts. Mine run $500 each - which is more than the doubler kit and t-case cost. But, if you get really crazy you can build the doubler and t-case for $1000-1200 - that's with all my do-dads like case half surfacing, sight tubes and drain plug. BTW, I do still have spare brackets and arms for somethings which I won't be using now that I'm planning on going to a LC so you're welcome to them if you decide to do this. The only thing you don't get is shift on the fly with the NP231. That makes me so sad. :rolleyes: Yea, out there you can't tell. Sometimes its good and sometimes not. It kinda depends. I'm still leaning on sat phone, though, for emergencies. Cell is just unpredictable. Have to think on it some more. Oh, good God. I've pulled out everything from a Subaru to a full sized Bronco backwards for a mile or more in 4-5' of snow. Believe me, if you have the durable, dependable always running vehicle you'll get there. Second to the last were two brand new Rubicons on 35/37"s. Group of two and both had gotten themselves stuck in the snow next to each other. They both had great respect for my Sport after I managed that without even paying attention. My favorite is still the guy with his monster CJ on 44"s that came to take me and my X up to my Sport where I had to abandon it in the snow for two weeks. Popped the bead on a tire in 4-5' of snow four miles from pavement a 11:30 at night the beginning of February in 15 below zero weather in a blizzard. Forgot my jack at home. STUPID!!! ARG! My X and I had to walk all the way out and have a friend pick us up on the highway. We were planning on coming back with the jack and shovel the next weekend but it started snowing real bad the next day and didn't stop for a week and a half. I found a guy not too far away that had this scary monster CJ that volunteered to take us up to my Sport. Dang near got the thing stuck in the snow 200 yards from the highway and several more times before he got most of the way to my Sport. Walked the rest of the way, changed the tire, fired it up, charged the lockers, let out the clutch and drove out up the trail another 100 yards to a turn around point, turned around and drove out. Wasn't any more exciting than driving out of a parking lot. The Jeep guy could not believe it. X told me his eyes got all big and wide and he just kinda stood there shaking his head. Said it looked like I was driving on dry pavement. Mmmm. That's interesting. Usually shops don't copy other shops stuff. They say how much? Hmm. That's the one for under the front to the front sub frame? That isn't gonna work for very long. There's a BIG difference between just lifting 4000lbs and adding momentum into the equation. If you drop 4000lbs one foot onto that it's going to fold like it wasn't even there. 1/4 T6061 is enough, but you put some weight on that and its going to fold up. The stock front is pretty heavy but it takes very little to mash that. I found my last aluminum one. I can't remember if this one is 1/4" or 5/16". The 5/16" works fine but it was overkill. Let me know if you want it. I'll never use it and its just hanging out collecting dust and taking up space. You still looking to do something for the gas tank? If so I still have a tank out of a vehicle and I'd be willing to CAD things up. If you're willing to pay materials and laser production costs I'll pitch my time in for free. Kinda irks me that I never got that project done and I wouldn't mind having one for my big Sport just for the hell of it. BTW, if you have time and care, look for a skid for a Ford 9" rear. Something that will protect the yoke and u-joint on the diff. I don't need that now and can't get one anyway 'cause I have a 44 but that was something I ALWAYS wanted before the SAS. I don't know how many times I whacked that yoke and then had to replace the u-joint. Edward
|
|
|
Post by jay4x4 on Oct 23, 2014 15:43:19 GMT -5
I have read an article in the past about geometry issues on a FJ forum. I believe they were discussing two different kits, one allowing 35's lol. I pretty much tried to remember what was said in that thread before I made my choice. I'll definitely be going with 33's.
I think a good set of A/Ts will do me good. I could do the whole " Better to have it and not need it, then need it and not have it" but honestly with the amount I go off road and the type I do. I would probably need them like once or twice a year, but would be carrying the extra mass and such all year long.
I don't like body lifts because they just seem like a mickey mouse way to do something if done by itself. I didn't really want to do it out of laziness and I don't think I need them with the 255/85/16s last time I checked. So if I can get it to check out without a body lift then it would be ideal to keep everything a bit lower.
Sounds like a plan on the T case! I like things I can work in pieces as it is easier on my budget and time. Sounds simple enough but I guess i'll wait to get into more detail about it when I'm ready to put it in, but yeah being in something with a good crawl ratio is insane when you compare the two. =]
Let me know if you decide to get a sat phone, I would like to hear some real reviews some a member.
LOL I think I remember that story about the jeep almost getting stuck bringing you back. Sounds like that thing is a beast. Maybe the jeep was too light?
I think last time I checked those rock sliders were about $182 without shipping, so seems to be a quite a bit cheaper and seems to be made with the correct thickness.
The skid goes right under the diff. What mounts did you use? one piece? I wasn't sure where else to put it and saw a thread with some another sport done that way and it looked good. Hmm maybe it is a bit thin lol. I figured I would use it now, can easily stop a rock with a good bump, but wont hold if I drop on a rock. So maybe later on I may save yours later lol.
I am not sure if I am going to get something else for the gas tank. If I recall correctly you mentioned it would be ok?. In any case I am really starting to think that I may just have this vehicle for back road adventures and not so much hit the rocks...still debating, because honestly to build a expedition rig I want I would need a truck since even with drawers put in and a rack and such. The montero only has so much space. especially since I use the rear seats.
Skid for Ford 9" will fit my rear end? ill check into it. Ive been worried about that area for a while now.
Sorry for the messy and short replies, I have been super busy and when I quote stuff it just confuses me lol.
|
|
|
Post by ES_97Sport on Oct 24, 2014 14:28:13 GMT -5
I have read an article in the past about geometry issues on a FJ forum. I believe they were discussing two different kits, one allowing 35's lol. I pretty much tried to remember what was said in that thread before I made my choice. I'll definitely be going with 33's. We have less issues than the FJs. Those things are a mess. I cringe every time I see one with a lift. Yep. That's exactly what I was trying to get across. If you really don't need them, M/Ts are a colossal waste of money and they put useless wear and tear on a vehicle. I agree. That is my feeling also. BUT, its a feeling, its not really logical. I'd take doing the body lift a lot more seriously. The most important thing you can do is NOT tighten up the torsion bars. Tightening up the bars will severely affect articulation in the front. Doing this unbalances the suspension. Too stiff in the front or too stiff in the back are VERY BAD THINGS. If I had a choice between adjusting the torsion bars to get the tires to fit and a body lift, I'd take the body lift irrespective of how I felt about them. From a wear and tear standpoint, you'll do more damage stiffening up the front over time than would be caused by a body lift. Besides which, it will be easier for you to fit the dual t-case setup with another 1-1.5" of clearance under the body. Will do. Nope. Not with 44"s and D70/D60s. Looked to me just like I explained. Kept trying to dig in rather than ride the top. Mmmm. That's cheaper than All-Pro. 80 wall DOM? Yep, that's what I thought it did. I used the front stock mounts and mounted the rear to the cross member. Three holes spaced across the cross member. Three 1/4" pucks between the skid plate and the cross member so that the cross member didn't hit the differential. You have to leave clearance there. The skid plate is one piece not counting the pucks. I just used a 2" hole saw to cut three pucks out of a sheet of T6061. It doesn't need to be T6061, but its what I had handy. It is a LOT thin. The stock skid plate in front is pretty thick, too, but it doesn't take much when you're talking about 4000+lbs of vehicle in motion. I've had to bang out two diff covers (mine twice). It sucks on the trail when you loose all the fluid - especially if you don't notice. Yea, let me know. I can't promise to keep it around. I'm trying to organize my garage so I can get some work benches installed and maybe a lathe and mill. If you want it, let me know. I'll be happy to ship it. ] The gas tank depends on how much clearance you have and what you do with your vehicle. If the tank drags then you need one. If you never hit the tank then you don't. I didn't do the damage on mine on rocks, it was the berms and dropping in holes on the trails. That's how it scrapes up gravel and crud. I'd probably be better off if it only was hit by rocks. That's cool. The less you use it the less you have to do. Cuts down on your costs. CoSport now runs a Tacoma that he has set up as primarily an expedition rig. Believe me, you can run out of room even in one of those. Yea, you can pack five and a weeks worth of gear in a Sport, I know 'cause I've done it a couple times. But, it is challenging. You have to pay a lot of attention to how and what you pack and it requires specialized equipment. Most of my stuff is backpacking gear to keep the weight and size down. Works well but its a little expensive when you start out. Of course, its nice I can use the stuff backpacking so I don't need two sets of camping gear. I was thinking of a pickup but I don't want IFS. I want solid axles front and rear and I REALLY don't want to get into another SAS if I can absolutely help it. Otherwise, I might as well go with my original plan of converting my little '97. We have a REALLY good shop in FC that does Toy conversions. My thinking right now is a '90s Land Cruiser and have them to a redo of the front and rear suspensions to fit 35"s. Toys are kinda expensive out here. Don't know what its like in SoCal. But, you might want to take a look at a Land Cruiser rather than pickup. So far, the suggestion has been the '97. Decent amount of space, solid axles, durable. Anyway, something to think on. There are a zillion out there. But as I understand it and from my research there are some that do bolt on. The Mitsu rear and the Ford 9" are both 3rd member setups and they're almost identical in size. I DO remember one or two on the Wire that had done this. Saw pics of one. If there's any modification to fit its going to be minimal. Edward
|
|
|