Bastard Leaf Spring Pack?
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Post by muddblood on Dec 20, 2016 17:03:15 GMT -5
So I am liking my 99 Montero Sport more and more as each (snowy and trail) day passes. But I do need bigger tires (for the trail days). I would like to put on 35's or 285/75/16 or 315/75/16 and pretty sure those will not fit at stock ride height. I already have Toyota 16" wheels on it now with 265/75/16.
One of my last vehicle was a 95 Jeep Cherokee and owners used part Cherokee leaf and part S10 leaf, otherwise known as a bastard pack, creating a "budget lift" for the rear. Pretty sure there are other bastard packs for my 4Runner I had too.
Granted, those are far more common vehicles to hit the trail, but the Montero Sport is VERY capable as well. From what I've seen so far, there are little to no options to lift the rear of my 99 Montero Sport...add a leaf and shackles are my only commercially available options and both have drawbacks I would rather not deal with (harsher ride with add a leaf, lower shackles to get caught on rocks and such). I have yet to see a mass produced leaf that will lift the rear.
So...I am wondering if anyone knows of a "bastard pack" leaf spring or a leaf spring from another vehicle that would yield 2" or so of lift in the rear?
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Post by ES_97Sport on Dec 20, 2016 17:33:42 GMT -5
So I am liking my 99 Montero Sport more and more as each (snowy and trail) day passes. Good to hear!  There are two ways to do this. Ok, really three but I doubt you're ready for a SAS.  Either do the lift BD just had done, or the cheaper 'piece meal' route. BD had a suspension lift from overseas installed. IFS LiftThe cheaper option is to go with a body lift, rear springs and turn up the front torsion bars a little (or replace them). Alcan in CO can make you a custom set of leafs for about $500, 4Crawler sells a 2" body lift and a couple places sell torsion bars and I think pinstryper found a set that would fit from a Montero for the front. If you want 35"s for the street/trail, I'd do the above and run 17" rims with a narrow 35" equivalent, not the typical 35x12.5. The narrower tire will fit better, be more efficient on the street and most likely give you better traction off road as well. Nope. The add-a-leaf and shackle solutions suck. Been there. 'bastardized' springs never work well. There's a lot more to springs then just 'the lift'. The rate needs to be matched to the front rate as well as to the weight and use of the vehicle. So, even if I knew I wouldn't suggest anything. BTW, you need a bull bar. Edward |
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Post by bdmontero on Dec 21, 2016 16:39:24 GMT -5
If you do the IFS lift they have a 4" inch and a 7". The 4" inch is really a 6" inch and the 7" is more like a 10". This is not something you can do over a weekend. Take it to a shop that knows what they are doing. Plan on right under 3000 for the lift, shipping, and install. I know it sounds like a lot but MAN! It's sweet! Mine rides like a caddy. Picture underneath is with 315/75/16 hankook m/t. Rim is a 16x8.5x108mm bore with a -25 offset which you WILL HAVE to get with that tire. I usually get stopped at least twice a day for complements on it. Right now it's the only one in the US. Was it 23" from bottom of frame to the ground Ed?😦☺  |
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Post by ES_97Sport on Dec 22, 2016 16:44:15 GMT -5
... Was it 23" from bottom of frame to the ground Ed?😦☺ Every time I see a pic I start drooling. That came out SO nice. Believe so. Its where mine was when we did the SAS in '02 - before it somehow started growing. Edward |
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Post by muddblood on Feb 12, 2017 11:00:20 GMT -5
Well shoot...not really ready to drop $3k on a lift...although that would be sweet!! And REALLY not in a positon for a SAS! I really like the idea of new leaf springs, and $500 is definitely manageable (although not very acceptable). Comparing apples to oranges, I did a complete front and rear lift on my last Cherokee for $300. I'll keep Alcon in mind though 😉.
But there are not any springs from another vehicle that would lift the rear? Like from a Jeep Cherokee or a Toyota 4Runner? Same "type" of vehicle and weighs about the same. I had a 92 4Runner and it rode VERY nice. I saw the OME and a few other torsion bars, and those will probably coke later.
I also though about just buying leafs for say, a 99 Cherokee and modifying shackles on the MS to work. Any thoughts on this? It would be much easier to find those.
I also like the idea of a narrow 35" tire. And thoughts on tire size?
As for new bull bar....yeah, I know. Again, $1300 just doesn't seem reasonable. I like to think I could buy my own welder (which would get used for many other things), 3/16" steel and make my own for $1300. Also though about buying one for another vehicle with a similar curved front and, cutting the mounts and welding on mounts for the MS. Just thoughts though.
Kind of sucks that no one makes a lift kit for these exceptionally capable vehicles
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Post by bdmontero on Feb 12, 2017 18:58:35 GMT -5
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Post by ES_97Sport on Feb 13, 2017 16:20:58 GMT -5
... I really like the idea of new leaf springs, and $500 is definitely manageable (although not very acceptable). Comparing apples to oranges, I did a complete front and rear lift on my last Cherokee for $300. I'll keep Alcon in mind though 😉. But there are not any springs from another vehicle that would lift the rear? Like from a Jeep Cherokee or a Toyota 4Runner? Same "type" of vehicle and weighs about the same. I had a 92 4Runner and it rode VERY nice. I saw the OME and a few other torsion bars, and those will probably coke later. I also though about just buying leafs for say, a 99 Cherokee and modifying shackles on the MS to work. Any thoughts on this? It would be much easier to find those. ... There aren't any drop in direct replacements from other vehicles that I'm aware of. One of the reasons I started getting mine custom built. On a more positive note, its also not that hard to retrofit a different leaf spring. If you could find a set that were the same width and really close in length - like +/- and inch or two - changing shackles and relocating the hangers isn't rocket surgery. You will need the eye-to-eye distance, front eye to the center pin distance, pack thickness and arch distance. Pack thickness is no big deal. You can buy longer spring u-bolts pretty easily. The more arch in a leaf spring, the more travel you will need in the shackle and that physically limits the length of spring unless you want to relocate the rear spring hanger. Its very easy to relocate the front hanger but you can not just shove all the length forward either. The front eye to center pin is also very important. As a leaf spring compresses, the axle moves backwards somewhat. The more arch there is, the more the spring compresses, the further the axle moves back. Worst case, too far and you drop the drive shaft out of the t-case. More likely you decrease the contact area in the yoke and either wear the yoke out quickly or break the yoke (or output shaft, or both) The other issue with that is just clearance. Ideally one wants the center pin to stay as close to the vertical plane it travels on as possible. That makes centering the axle for maximum wheel clearance in the wheel well easy (or easier). Honestly, nothing here is rocket surgery. Depending on the length and travel of the springs, you may need a longer drive shaft and/or longer e-brake cables, longer end links for the anti-roll bar and different (longer) shocks. There are after-market front hangers for everything conceivable. The rear shackles would be the most difficult but are still not impossible. None of this will change the fact that whatever you find will not have the correct spring rate, let alone optimal rate. The wrong rate can and frequently does make the vehicle unstable and dangerous - ESPECIALLY OFF ROAD. 17" rim for a street driven vehicle. 15->17" or 16->17" may not seem like much of a difference, but it is. 17"s will make the vehicle much more stable and much more comfortable to drive. You loose some rim protection off road, but running a skinny tire will loose you that anyway. 7-8" wide rim - either would be good for a skinny (10-10.5) tire. 8" is good for a 12.5". Wider than 8" - especially with narrow tires - dramatically increases the likelihood of popping a bead off road. Whatever 35" you settle with, keep it lite. You will sacrifice some durability but heavy tire/rim combinations are going to beat the crap out of your suspension, steering and front drive train on or off road. The bumper isn't that big a deal. Its the bumper to frame that will be a challenge. Unlike everything else I've seen, our bumpers do not come straight off the frame. If you're planning on running a winch, that has to be done EXACTLY right, like BD said. Get it wrong and you'll tear the bumper off the first time you use the winch. Edward |
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Post by bdmontero on Feb 14, 2017 9:32:17 GMT -5
Ironman4x4 and OME make the HD leaf kits that support an extra 600 lbs and raise it 3". I think a 2" in. Body and a 3" suspension would be perfect.
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Post by ES_97Sport on Feb 14, 2017 15:46:44 GMT -5
Ironman4x4 and OME make the HD leaf kits that support an extra 600 lbs and raise it 3". I think a 2" in. Body and a 3" suspension would be perfect. From the 265 to a 35" is about 5-ish inches / 2 = 2.5-ish. That's the gain in clearance just from the tires. Plus another 3" for the suspension would increase the total ground clearance by about 5". That is quite a bit in real life, even though it might not seem like much on paper. The 2" body lift SHOULD be enough for 35"s but ... that is somewhat dependent on the tire design and width and rim diameter, width and off-set. I can't imagine, based on my experience running 35x12.5s, that 2" wouldn't be sufficient for a 10-10.5" wide tire. I should preface that with, "as long as you have a bull bar". My Geolandar M/T 35x12.5x15 (actual diameter 34.4") aired down to 12 psi will completely stuff into the rear wheel well with just a TINY rub at the lower, very bottom of the front and rear edges. That is FULLY stuffed up inside the well. Same for the front. Just a tiny rub at the lower bottom of the rear of the front wheel well when the tires are turned JUST right. I KNOW a 2" body lift would completely eliminate the the rear rub by a good bit, so an actual 35" diameter tire (even with big blocks) should clear easily. I'm pretty sure 2" would fix the front rub, too. My - GUESS - is that one might get away with a 1" body lift with a skinny M/T, and that would be even more likely with an A/T. Worst case with a 2" body lift? Increase the height of the rear bump stops an inch or two. With 3" more in suspension lift, an inch or two "higher" bump stops won't affect off road performance one wit and that would definitely take care of any rub on the lower edges. It would be dirt simple to extend the pads off the frame. The front, since its IFS, kinda takes care of that on its own since it has the travel it has and nothing we're talking about would change that. It'd be interesting to see. This is kinda what I'm thinking about doing to the little '97 when I'm finished with the '99, except for I think I'd stick with something in a 32-33". 35" is a big large for putzing around town, especially with the 4.60s. Edward |
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Post by muddblood on Mar 11, 2017 18:24:44 GMT -5
bdmontero - WOW! That is a A LOT of information!! Thanks!! I'm pretty sure I checked Ironman 4x4 and found nothing. I'll check again though. My biggest issue right now is getting it to pass CO emissions. If I cannot get it to pass, no point in spending any money and time on lifting it or bigger tires. It almost sounds like converting to a coil spring in the rear would be easier??
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Post by muddblood on Mar 11, 2017 19:25:22 GMT -5
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Post by muddblood on Mar 11, 2017 20:43:21 GMT -5
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Post by ES_97Sport on Mar 13, 2017 14:44:53 GMT -5
... It almost sounds like converting to a coil spring in the rear would be easier?? Depends on what you want to do with the vehicle AFTERWARDS. I just spend the $500 with Alcan in Grand Junction and I'm done. So, in that respect, no its not easier to convert to coils. OME/ARB makes complete leaf sets as well. For a maximum of $1000 you could ALSO get a set of OME leafs and have Alcan re-arch them and/or add/change the leafs for a little more lift than the OME springs give. These are just bolt-in solutions - which I guarantee you will be happier with than anything cobbled together. The thing with leaf springs is that they will carry A LOT MORE WEIGHT than coil springs or coil-over springs and last a lot longer than coils or coil-overs - ESPECIALLY off road - and that makes leafs cheaper in the long run, even if they're not up front. That said, yes, you can convert from leafs to coils or even coil-overs. Easily. Danny's silver Sport runs a 3-link suspension in the rear (4-link won't fit, BTW) with coil-overs. If memory serves it wasn't a big deal and AFAIK he's still very happy with it. Be prepared to dump $2000 in parts and metal if you do everything yourself and spend several months tuning the coil-overs. Swapping to coil springs - like the gen 2 Sports - would also not be that big a deal since there are a zillion places that sell all the pieces you'd need. Toasty sells the adjustable track bar - which IMHO would be the 'hardest' piece to come up with. You will still spend northwards of $1000 for parts and metal if you do everything yourself. IMHO, if you're going to street drive it, do the latter. If you're going to wheel it do the former. Personally I don't see the benefit of either even off road. I get just as much travel out of the back of my leaf sprung '97 as Danny gets out of his 3-link, and I can carry 1000lbs of gear and supplies off road without even thinking about it and my stock '97 with leafs articulates just as well as my '03 with coils (as long as the sway bar is disconnected). Edward |
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Post by muddblood on Mar 15, 2017 11:53:09 GMT -5
@es_97Sport - Thanks for all the advise and info. I think once it passes emissions, I will either try out the Ironman 4x4 springs at $250, or find a shop that will cut off my perches and weld them to the top of the axle at $120 or so. I like the second option more because I could probable get away from longer shocks at this time (and get lift springs if I need more lift)...and it's cheaper.
I've been watching A LOT of youtube videos on these things and 2" lift and 33's seem to be the most common way to go and still make these things AMAZING off road. If I need bigger than 33" tires, I'll do a 2" body lift (even though I know most people are against this). My front bumper is already trash and I've been meaning to "clean it up" some, so trimming it for larger tires isn't an issue.
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Post by muddblood on Mar 15, 2017 12:02:23 GMT -5
Ironman4x4 and OME make the HD leaf kits that support an extra 600 lbs and raise it 3". I think a 2" in. Body and a 3" suspension would be perfect. OHHH, me too!!! But how to get 3" out of the front? |
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Either do the lift BD just had done, or the cheaper 'piece meal' route. BD had a suspension lift from overseas installed.
