Fluttering/Dimming Lights
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Post by jpele21 on Oct 18, 2014 14:57:07 GMT -5
I just put in a new alternator in the Spring, no oil on the current one or visible leaks. While driving or parked, I notice that the dome lights/reading lights dim or flutter a bit. Also, the dash does the same. I haven't really noticed it much on the headlights when parked infront of the garage. I know it could probably be a hundred things. Are there some common grounds that get loose? Maybe at the alternator?
Jeff
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Post by dclambertt on Oct 20, 2014 17:45:14 GMT -5
Seems to be a common issue. At idle mine will do that.
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Post by jpele21 on Oct 20, 2014 22:56:52 GMT -5
Well....shucks....okay, at least I'm not alone
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Post by chrisho on Oct 22, 2014 21:20:38 GMT -5
Just noticed mine doing this as well tonight. A few yrs back I posted the correct bulbs to replace and cannot find the thread I created. Any advice of the correct bulb # to replace.
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Post by dclambertt on Oct 24, 2014 16:34:55 GMT -5
Which bulb are you replacing? I used E73 bulbs for most of my burned out cluster lights. There are a few larger bulbs used there too.
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Post by jkdv8 on Oct 27, 2014 18:38:28 GMT -5
#194 are the big ones. 194LL for long life bulbs.
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Post by r0llinlacs on Jan 29, 2015 12:51:37 GMT -5
Mine does this too but even worse because it has a misfire. Brand new alternator that I'm sure doesn't exactly meet OEM specs.
The problem is at low idle the alternator does not sufficiently charge because it doesn't spin fast enough. The dimming lights are accompanied by voltage drop (Mine drops from 14v to 12v when idling in gear)
The only two fixes I can think of would be somehow adjusting the idle to idle higher (not sure if this would help in gear and would create drag with brakes applied) or swapping the pulley on the alternator for a smaller one. I'm not sure either option is possible, but if anybody wants to chime in about that let me know!!
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Post by ES_97Sport on Jan 30, 2015 14:51:21 GMT -5
... The problem is at low idle the alternator does not sufficiently charge because it doesn't spin fast enough. The dimming lights are accompanied by voltage drop (Mine drops from 14v to 12v when idling in gear) ... Fluttering is caused by a bad alternator. There is a different between 'dimming' and 'fluttering'. There is an entire thread that's just a month or so old that addresses this. Nope. Idle is controlled by the ECM/PCM. You can adjust the base idle speed but after that the ECM/PCM takes over and sets it to what is programmed in the computer. This is a solution and is the solution I've used since about '08/'09 on my big '97 Sport. My big Sport has the Ford Contour dual-cooling fan conversion as well as the 80/100 H4 headlight bulb conversion. Both of which pull quite a bit of continuous amperage. I've used two different smaller pulleys. The first supplied by Mr. Alternator (not available anymore, nor do I recommend the company) was a standard grove and used the factory belt. I used this pulley on both an HO alternator as well as factory (non-OEM) alternators. The pulley supplied on Quality Power's alternators (AFAIK, available separately) uses a 6 grove and requires a shorter belt. The smaller pulley works fine and definitely helps with the brownout at idle. Just to head this thought off at the pass - installing a smaller pulley DOES NOT increase the total amperage of the alternator; it ONLY increases the amperage at a given RPM. So, if you have stock Sport with no electrical add-ons and you're just trying to get rid of that annoying sag at idle, this would be the easiest and cheapest solution. KIM, that this is not a win-win solution. Installing a smaller pulley will significantly increase wear on the alternator. If you're good with that trade-off then you're ok. If not, then leave things alone. Mitsu alternators are NOT CHEAP so .... If you have extra electrical gee-gaws, then this won't do you much good. The stock alternator is something like 85-90 amps. That's about enough to supply the normal factory electronics and electrical system. Just barely.  Anyway, if that's the case then look at the Quality Power links below. 175 amps with the smaller pulley is enough for most everyone except for audiophiles and serious winch/on-board welder use. KIM, that with this alternator you will have to upgrade your charging system. This is not a simple plug-in solution. There are several threads from last year on this topic. Quality Power FAQQuality PowerCE sells by far the best battery cable I've ever used. They'll sell just the pieces or make them to your specs. Unless you have the press and dies to properly crimp big cable, have them do it for your. It's much cheaper and you won't have to worry about buying tools that will just get used once. CE Auto Electric Supply<edit> Confirmed with Quality Power. Contact them for more information on the correct pulley for your alternator. <edit> Edward |
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Post by r0llinlacs on Jan 31, 2015 10:59:59 GMT -5
... The problem is at low idle the alternator does not sufficiently charge because it doesn't spin fast enough. The dimming lights are accompanied by voltage drop (Mine drops from 14v to 12v when idling in gear) ... Fluttering is caused by a bad alternator. There is a different between 'dimming' and 'fluttering'. There is an entire thread that's just a month or so old that addresses this. Nope. Idle is controlled by the ECM/PCM. You can adjust the base idle speed but after that the ECM/PCM takes over and sets it to what is programmed in the computer. This is a solution and is the solution I've used since about '08/'09 on my big '97 Sport. My big Sport has the Ford Contour dual-cooling fan conversion as well as the 80/100 H4 headlight bulb conversion. Both of which pull quite a bit of continuous amperage. I've used two different smaller pulleys. The first supplied by Mr. Alternator (not available anymore, nor do I recommend the company) was a standard grove and used the factory belt. I used this pulley on both an HO alternator as well as factory (non-OEM) alternators. The pulley supplied on Quality Power's alternators (AFAIK, available separately) uses a 6 grove and requires a shorter belt. The smaller pulley works fine and definitely helps with the brownout at idle. Just to head this thought off at the pass - installing a smaller pulley DOES NOT increase the total amperage of the alternator; it ONLY increases the amperage at a given RPM. So, if you have stock Sport with no electrical add-ons and you're just trying to get rid of that annoying sag at idle, this would be the easiest and cheapest solution. KIM, that this is not a win-win solution. Installing a smaller pulley will significantly increase wear on the alternator. If you're good with that trade-off then you're ok. If not, then leave things alone. Mitsu alternators are NOT CHEAP so .... If you have extra electrical gee-gaws, then this won't do you much good. The stock alternator is something like 85-90 amps. That's about enough to supply the normal factory electronics and electrical system. Just barely. Anyway, if that's the case then look at the Quality Power links below. 175 amps with the smaller pulley is enough for most everyone except for audiophiles and serious winch/on-board welder use. KIM, that with this alternator you will have to upgrade your charging system. This is not a simple plug-in solution. There are several threads from last year on this topic. Quality Power FAQQuality PowerCE sells by far the best battery cable I've ever used. They'll sell just the pieces or make them to your specs. Unless you have the press and dies to properly crimp big cable, have them do it for your. It's much cheaper and you won't have to worry about buying tools that will just get used once. CE Auto Electric Supply<edit> Confirmed with Quality Power. Contact them for more information on the correct pulley for your alternator. <edit> Edward The alternator is brand new, I really hope it's not bad yet! Mine does flutter at low RPM because it has a misfire and doesn't exactly idle smooth or as high as it should in gear sometimes. At low idle in gear the lights do pulse or "flutter" and the more stuff that's turned on (lights, heat etc) the worse it is. Most of the time I just give it a tiny tad bit of gas while stopped to bring the RPMs up a tiny bit and that fixes it. Anything below about 650rpm and the voltage drops to 12 volts and the lights dim and flutter with the misfiring engine. Anything above that is normal/smooth 14.4+ volts. I'm not sure what sizes the pulleys come in, but if I were to replace the pulley, I can't see it having to be all THAT much smaller to make a measly 100rpm difference at idle. I will contact the company and find out what sizes are available! I do have an amplifier that draws 90 amps so a high output alternator will be something I need in the future, and $305 sounds a lot cheaper than a HO alternator for my old car! But in the meantime, I'm just going to upgrade the wires to help with voltage drop. The stock wires look awfully small and to my standards, don't even look sufficient for the stock alternator. I worked at a car audio installation shop for years, so I do have the proper terminals and crimpers (I usually both crimp then solder the terminals then heatshrink them) and I can just cut my pieces to the lengths I need. I still have plenty of spare 0 and 4 gauge wire laying around along with terminals so it's just a matter of finding a nice day to do it. Sufficient sized wire and good connections make all the difference! The wire you linked to does look nice! You can never go wrong with OFC but I just can't bring myself to spend money when I already have the wire, even though what I have is probably CCA, it's still better than stock. But thanks a lot for your response and the info! I'm still new to these cars and trying to learn my way around them so it's much appreciated! |
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Post by redraif on Feb 2, 2015 14:52:02 GMT -5
If you have extra electrical gee-gaws, then this won't do you much good. The stock alternator is something like 85-90 amps. That's about enough to supply the normal factory electronics and electrical system. Just barely. Anyway, if that's the case then look at the Quality Power links below. 175 amps with the smaller pulley is enough for most everyone except for audiophiles and serious winch/on-board welder use. KIM, that with this alternator you will have to upgrade your charging system. This is not a simple plug-in solution. There are several threads from last year on this topic. Quality Power FAQQuality PowerCE sells by far the best battery cable I've ever used. They'll sell just the pieces or make them to your specs. Unless you have the press and dies to properly crimp big cable, have them do it for your. It's much cheaper and you won't have to worry about buying tools that will just get used once. CE Auto Electric Supply<edit> Confirmed with Quality Power. Contact them for more information on the correct pulley for your alternator. <edit> Edward Good Info! Thank you! I'm sure I will be needing this before too long.... well if and when we do an audio upgrade and add more AUX lights... Their alternator is looking pretty nice. Though I wish for the cost it was a polished case!  I looked at CE's stuff. They have a nice collection. Though I nearly had a stroke when I saw the prices on their headlight relay kits! I guess when I discovered this trick back in 1999 I should have started making kits and selling them. I adapted a $10 GM relay kit from JCWhitney. In stock form it was inadequate and I would never use it, but I copied the design and beefed all the components up for all my GM cars. Gm was bad about having one headlight beam on when you are running with high beams. It proved inadequate lighting. I got the kit to convert the 90 Chevy Dually, so the low beam would stay on with the brights to take full advantage of my lighting options. Truck had crap lights! Soon after was Mom's old 85 Pontiac 6000LE. It had the same short comings. It worked so well that I kept going. Then I adapted my 87 firebird from the pop up headlights to a 2 headlight system and the same for the 84 Fiero! Using a relay for the headlight system helped by leaps and bounds. Anyway I digress.... Thank you for sharing these links! |
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Post by ES_97Sport on Feb 2, 2015 18:56:30 GMT -5
... The alternator is brand new, I really hope it's not bad yet! Mine does flutter at low RPM because it has a misfire and doesn't exactly idle smooth or as high as it should in gear sometimes. At low idle in gear the lights do pulse or "flutter" and the more stuff that's turned on (lights, heat etc) the worse it is. Most of the time I just give it a tiny tad bit of gas while stopped to bring the RPMs up a tiny bit and that fixes it. Anything below about 650rpm and the voltage drops to 12 volts and the lights dim and flutter with the misfiring engine. Anything above that is normal/smooth 14.4+ volts. re: 'alternator is brand new' That doesn't mean anything really. Pulsating lights happen with everything turned off. It doesn't get 'better' if you turn stuff on and it doesn't get better as engine speed increases. The frequency of the pulse increases as RPM increases and if you're not very attentive it may APPEAR to stop but that's because you're eyes arn't capable of seeing the pulses that close together. If the EVERYTHING dims at idle and than go back up about 1K or so, that's the usual stupid Mitsu 'not enough amps at idle' thing. Again, these are COMPLETELY different issues. It is possible that you are experiencing both. Been there, got the tee-shirt. If the vehicle is miss-firing because of an electrical 'miss' or brown out, you have a serious problem. I can drop my big Sport to 12v with every electrical accessory on + both Contour engine fans going full blast at idle and ignition is rock solid. It is also possible that if you're getting a miss because of brown out, that it is NOT ignition - that its injectors. Proper injection operation requires a consistent electrical feed to the injectors. Injectors are electrical solenoids - change the power feed and you change the operation. The ECM/PCM expects n amount of fuel to be injected with each pulse. If you change the voltage, you change the pulse. The ECM/PCM doesn't know about that change so you're injectors are squirting one amount and the ECM/PCM is thinking its squirting something else. Either way, you have an electrical problem. A pulley is not going to fix your problem. You have an electrical issue. Sticking pulley on there is only a band-aid. There is a big thread on upgrading/changing the +/-. Changing out the positive isn't practical. Add a secondary. Replacing the negative is documented in a previous thread from a few months ago. I'm not real impressed with the OEM negative cable so I'd build a new 4GA one for any vehicle I owned with more than 150-200K if it was exposed to winter road crud. Adding the secondary positive with a stock alternator is largely pointless. BTW, for a 175A, unless you're running into some distances, 4GA is sufficient. Which is about what the stock wires are. The stock alternator is only about 90A. Again, YOU HAVE A PROBLEM. You need to address that before applying band-aids. Edward |
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Post by ES_97Sport on Feb 2, 2015 19:08:42 GMT -5
... Good Info! Thank you! I'm sure I will be needing this before too long.... well if and when we do an audio upgrade and add more AUX lights... Their alternator is looking pretty nice. Though I wish for the cost it was a polished case! Price out a stock OEM alternator then get back to me on how expensive a 175A HO alternator is. I didn't pick these guys by accident. There are HO alternators and then there are HO alternators. They're ALL expensive, but at least these seem to last. Add labor and parts together and unless you want to be doing this for free you have to charge something. A good harness with adequate wire usually isn't that cheap. Mostly, though, its the cost in time to build them. I priced out building my own about 5 years ago. Parts was about $30-40 + hour, hour and a half labor ... came out about what I paid for the harness for my big Sport. But, you're right, using a relayed harness works better on the Sports, too. I can't see much point, though, on the '00-'05s since you can't use a higher wattage bulb without melting the housing. Edward |
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Post by r0llinlacs on Feb 2, 2015 23:36:00 GMT -5
... The alternator is brand new, I really hope it's not bad yet! Mine does flutter at low RPM because it has a misfire and doesn't exactly idle smooth or as high as it should in gear sometimes. At low idle in gear the lights do pulse or "flutter" and the more stuff that's turned on (lights, heat etc) the worse it is. Most of the time I just give it a tiny tad bit of gas while stopped to bring the RPMs up a tiny bit and that fixes it. Anything below about 650rpm and the voltage drops to 12 volts and the lights dim and flutter with the misfiring engine. Anything above that is normal/smooth 14.4+ volts. re: 'alternator is brand new' That doesn't mean anything really. Pulsating lights happen with everything turned off. It doesn't get 'better' if you turn stuff on and it doesn't get better as engine speed increases. The frequency of the pulse increases as RPM increases and if you're not very attentive it may APPEAR to stop but that's because you're eyes arn't capable of seeing the pulses that close together. If the EVERYTHING dims at idle and than go back up about 1K or so, that's the usual stupid Mitsu 'not enough amps at idle' thing. Again, these are COMPLETELY different issues. It is possible that you are experiencing both. Been there, got the tee-shirt. If the vehicle is miss-firing because of an electrical 'miss' or brown out, you have a serious problem. I can drop my big Sport to 12v with every electrical accessory on + both Contour engine fans going full blast at idle and ignition is rock solid. It is also possible that if you're getting a miss because of brown out, that it is NOT ignition - that its injectors. Proper injection operation requires a consistent electrical feed to the injectors. Injectors are electrical solenoids - change the power feed and you change the operation. The ECM/PCM expects n amount of fuel to be injected with each pulse. If you change the voltage, you change the pulse. The ECM/PCM doesn't know about that change so you're injectors are squirting one amount and the ECM/PCM is thinking its squirting something else. Either way, you have an electrical problem. A pulley is not going to fix your problem. You have an electrical issue. Sticking pulley on there is only a band-aid. There is a big thread on upgrading/changing the +/-. Changing out the positive isn't practical. Add a secondary. Replacing the negative is documented in a previous thread from a few months ago. I'm not real impressed with the OEM negative cable so I'd build a new 4GA one for any vehicle I owned with more than 150-200K if it was exposed to winter road crud. Adding the secondary positive with a stock alternator is largely pointless. BTW, for a 175A, unless you're running into some distances, 4GA is sufficient. Which is about what the stock wires are. The stock alternator is only about 90A. Again, YOU HAVE A PROBLEM. You need to address that before applying band-aids. Edward Okay, I'm not sure if I'm explaining this correctly. It's harder to explain than it is to see it happening. I'm not sure what is causing the misfire, but it misfires at all RPMs, so the "brownout" has nothing to do with the misfire. I will put my money on an injector, but the car doesn't show any codes (I hope it's not a mechanical misfire). At idle, in drive, the engine itself pulsates, which makes it idle unevenly, which during the "brownout" causes the lights to fluctuate with the engine speed and voltage. The lights pulsate with the engine speed during the "brownout". The brightness of the lights is tied directly to the car voltage. With the misfire, during the "brownout" at idle, in drive, the voltage can fluctuate from anywhere between 12-14.4 volts. The line between 12v and 14.4 is a very thin line. It can change from 12v @ 650rpm to 14.4v @ 700rpm with no electronics on. The fluctuation in voltage is directly tied to engine speed and with the engine misfiring the alternator, in a sense of the word, also has a "misfire". I don't have a voltage meter with a high enough refresh rate to accurately monitor the voltage at idle, in gear. My CD player has a volt meter on it and the vehicle has an analog volt meter. Neither of them read anything close to steady voltage at idle, in gear. It jumps all over the place between 12v and 14.4v, just like the lights do. I'd bet $100 bucks a pulley would fix my problem, I'm sure of it. I have absolutely no voltage problems aside from idling in gear. It charges at 14.9 volts when cold and no lower than 14.2 when warm. Idling in neutral or park is no problem. As the engine speed fluctuates with the misfire, so does the alternator, and so do the lights. Fixing the misfire would fix the pulsating lights, but it will not fix the brownout problem. The brownout is why the lights fluctuate with the fluctuating misfiring engine speed. Only a smaller pulley will fix the brownout and will in return fix the pulsating lights. I will have to take a video. It's just too hard to explain. The alternator, battery wires and grounds was something we specialized in at my old shop. The "big 3" for high amperage audio installs. IMHO, when it comes to wire size, go big or go home, regardless of lengths. If you're running anything more than a stock alternator, go with 2 or 0 gauge. Larger wire helps prevent voltage drop regardless of the run length. There is always less resistance with thicker wire so thicker wire = better current flow = less voltage drop and this is especially true in 12 volt systems. Also, chassis grounds are only as good as 4 gauge wire. If your current draw exceeds what 4 gauge can handle, it's recommended to ground to the chassis and run a separate ground wire of equal size to the battery. The only place on a vehicle that can sufficiently ground wires larger than 4 gauge is the frame. Also, thicker wire takes a lot longer to burn up and catch on fire if you get a short or a freak accident, so there really are no downsides to using thicker wire other than price and (lack of) ease of install. EDIT I just watched the video in the post you linked to. Mine pulsates like that, but NOT in neutral or park. In his video, it looks to be idling right at 750rpm. I have no issues at 750rpm. My issue is in gear below 700 rpm which leads me to believe it just needs a tiny bit of a smaller pulley to keep the voltage up at lower idle speeds. Also, the brownout may be the cause of my low in-gear idle as the voltage drop also drops engine speed. I will definitely take a video soon. |
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Post by ES_97Sport on Feb 3, 2015 16:27:39 GMT -5
...I'm not sure what is causing the misfire, but it misfires at all RPMs, so the "brownout" has nothing to do with the misfire. I will put my money on an injector, but the car doesn't show any codes (I hope it's not a mechanical misfire). Correct. If its miss-firing at all RPM that wouldn't be what I was explaining unless you were running with no alternator on battery power maybe. The injector thing I was talking about won't kick codes. Technically, nothing is broke. The ECM/PCM just increases the pulse width to compensate for the lean condition that the injectors are creating by not staying open the amount of time the ECM/PCM thinks its telling them to stay open. You can see this behavior in a logging scanner. The ECM/PCM does a start up test on the injectors. If that comes back OK, then AFAIKT unless an injector actually fails that's the only time you'd get an injector code. The miss-fire stuff requires that so many miss-fires happen in n period of time during a drive cycle. This stuff won't catch the random (or what it thinks is random) miss-fire. I don't THINK that this problem would cause miss-fires but I'm not 100% sure. When I was dealing this this, I fixed so many things I can't be sure. I DO know it'll make your vehicle run like crap. Fix your miss-fire first. AFTER you've got the vehicle running correctly, worry about putting in a bigger alternator with a smaller pulley. Edward |
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Post by ES_97Sport on Feb 5, 2015 15:08:15 GMT -5
Can you try something for me?
At idle with the transmission in Drive, you say it 'misfires'. In Neutral and Park the problem goes away.
#1 When its misfiring at idle in Drive (with your foot on the brake), shift down one gear. Let me know if the problem goes away.
#2 Repeat the process by shifting down one more gear. Let me know if the problem goes away or continues to be absent if it went away in step #1.
#3 Repeat the process by shifting down one more gear. Let me know if the problem goes away or continues to be absent if it went away in steps #1 and #2.
It occurred to me last night on the way home that what you might think is a misfire isn't. It talked to the senior tech today while checking out the work on my big Sport and ran the behavior by him. He confirmed what I've been thinking - your descriptions are not jiving with actual possible problems.
Edward
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Anyway, if that's the case then look at the Quality Power links below. 175 amps with the smaller pulley is enough for most everyone except for audiophiles and serious winch/on-board welder use. KIM, that with this alternator you will have to upgrade your charging system. This is not a simple plug-in solution. There are several threads from last year on this topic.
