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Post by redraif on Feb 13, 2016 19:56:57 GMT -5
So I'm sure you guys have been following my thread about my engine noise that showed up after the shop left the timing tensioner pulley loose on the sport. msport97.proboards.com/thread/10936/issues-sport-clattering-noise-againWell he is trying to say the failure was simply a coincidence. That the hydralic portion failed not the pulley part. That his guy left the pulley part disconnected not the hydralic part, ergo the failure is not on him. I dont know enough about how these parts interact with one another when properly versus improperly installed. Would the pulley part being left disconnected cause the failure? I told him that to me, the coincidence is way too strong. The noise happened prior to the complete failure and was assumed to be the pulley rubbing on the timing cover. When it was left discnnect and wore a hole in the timing cover. Then the same noise returned intermittantly directly after the repair. Of which i told them about. I also told him I thought the tensioner needed to be replaced when he disovered the techs initial error. He said he thought it was fine. He chose to not repair it then. In my opinion the labor should fall on him for not heading my advise to proactively change it wen the error was discovered. What do you guys think? Would the pulley being left disconnected cause the hydralic part to fail? |
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Post by jkdv8 on Feb 13, 2016 23:09:50 GMT -5
Doesn't sound right to me. I had the dealer inspect mine (hopefully going by the shop manual) to see if it needed replacement last timing job so next job in 50K I will probably replace it. Seems a good rule of thumb to replace the water pump every other timing job and the tensioner every 3rd timing job. At 225K I probably would've had them do it regardless.
However, when he says his guy left the pulley part disconnected I'm not really sure what he's talking about/referring to. Without the pulley set right (certain procedure) and the tensioner probably engaged I don't see how it could keep proper tension without jumping teeth. Now if the pulley procedure wasn't done correctly I could see it causing premature failure of the tensioner. I myself haven't done a timing job on these yet but, from what Ive read on this site and seen in the shop manuals something sounds off.
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Post by colted on Feb 14, 2016 0:01:07 GMT -5
The exact thing happened on my daughter's honda civic just a few months ago on her way from school.....engine was making too much noise and tought the t-belt broke, but previous owner says t-belt was just replaced just lately and I got the car at 119k miles only.....had it towed to my trusty shop and mechanic found that the tensioner and water pump broke making all that noise, that save me a lot of money since it has an interference engine....he told me that it's common for some mechanic try to cheapen out on the timing belt job by not replacing the tensioner & water pump.....my trusty shop recommends replacing everything every t-belt job.
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Post by Naeos_Valkarian on Feb 14, 2016 1:22:35 GMT -5
The exact thing happened on my daughter's honda civic just a few months ago on her way from school.....engine was making too much noise and tought the t-belt broke, but previous owner says t-belt was just replaced just lately and I got the car at 119k miles only.....had it towed to my trusty shop and mechanic found that the tensioner and water pump broke making all that noise, that save me a lot of money since it has an interference engine....he told me that it's common for some mechanic try to cheapen out on the timing belt job by not replacing the tensioner & water pump.....my trusty shop recommends replacing everything every t-belt job. I agree with the last part, I would even replace the tensioner every time.  |
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Post by bdmontero on Feb 14, 2016 12:52:14 GMT -5
Tensioner needs to be replaced every time as well as the belt and water pump. I would even do the water pipe o ring unless it isn't leaking. I would triple check the front cam seals too. If they are not leaking I'd leave those alone on that job. This stuff is so hard to get to its better to be safe than sorry. Also a lot of failures are to due to cheap parts. Sounds like the tech screwed up and needs to own up to it.
Sent from my SM-N900V using proboards
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Post by jkdv8 on Feb 14, 2016 15:12:56 GMT -5
Yea, if you want piece of mind you can replace it all everytime but, it's not really necessary. I've had the dealer do my timing belts both times and they mentioned the first time doing the water pump, I declined, and it was fine. Had them look at the tensioner this last time they said it was fine. Now if you don't keep up with cooling flushes then yes I would replace the water pump every timing job and if you really want to be paranoid you should replace the belt, tensioner, tensioner pulley, idler pulley, cam seals, crank seals, crank sensor, and cam sensor while its torn apart. I know it's a different story if a timing related component fails but OEM parts are pretty solid. If you're using anything else then yes definitely replace everytime and probably more often than mitsus service intervals. If the tensioner doesn't show any sign of leakage or damaged shaft and holds spec myself or the service manual don't see any reason to replace it.
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jocks
Junior Member
Posts: 28 
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Post by jocks on Feb 15, 2016 2:58:52 GMT -5
Its not the fact that it might not fail, its more to the point of the labor involved to replace said parts if they do fail. So you replace them as preventative maintenance. Crank angle sensor will not destroy an engine if it fails. Water pump failure will cause some costly repair, just the same as anything related to the timing belt. Not sure what you guys pay over in the US but over here in AUS people are paying upwards of 1k for a timing belt job. Someone on the Pajero Forums said they'd been quoted $1300.
For some people that's 2 weeks wages, i know if i was paying i wouldn't want to be coming back anytime soon.
As for OP - Mate i would be demanding he repair the car. It doesnt matter if it was him or a former technician. He was competent enough to trust someone and as the sole business owner its him that bill falls on.
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Post by jkdv8 on Feb 15, 2016 18:03:09 GMT -5
Yea my last job was 1300 iirc. Timing belt, 3 accessory belts, water pump, and cam seals..... Think there was something else, will have to look at the receipt. A friend had their belt done for 850. I myself can't justify spending that much every 60K though. I was at 74K before the first one was changed and the only reason I did the last one was the cam seals. Still had like 10K before the recommended 60K mitsu change. But if oil or water gets on the belt it needs to be replaced, stated in the service manual. They didn't say anything about it but, maybe because I was doing the belt anyways. They quoted me almost $90 for the hydraulic tensioner and everyone I have seen that had one fail didn't destroy the engine and they had 200k+ miles on them. If the tensioner pulley is set right it doesn't seem like it will jump teeth even if the hydraulic tensioner fails completely. Hydraulic one, from my understanding, only applies tension that adjusts according to rpm. Someone on here recently had 180K on the original belt and everything before it was changed. Just trying to save money when possible. If was going to make the habit of replacing 20 components every belt job I would've bought an American car  Not necessary on these. To do all that I listed is approaching $2K and if you don't do one of them you run the risk of having to tear it down again or even bigger problems except for maybe the exception of the cam sensor. I guess the point is you can try to be proactive all you want but at what point does it become absurd. Crap happens all the time and as the miles rack up the more likely chance that one of those will fail unexpectedly........  |
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Post by redraif on Feb 15, 2016 21:43:42 GMT -5
Exactly why i told him while you are in there... replace the belt again... the cam seals are leaking bad enough im loosing a quart every 700 miles! Ugh! I'm sure that's bad news for the belt! Fact is if i get stuck with even some of the labor for this mess, i'm not paying yet again to go back in again in another 30,000. Just do it while your in there already. I told the owner he is going to get me divorced!
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Post by redraif on Feb 16, 2016 10:08:04 GMT -5
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Post by redraif on Feb 16, 2016 10:49:49 GMT -5
So it looks like $568.67 is the damage... ugh! New cam seals, new crank seal, new belt... labor those 3 less labor for the tearing apart putting together & tensioner... Tensioner only 1/2 of parts... Break down on its way to me...
break down...
Original deal: $315 labor + $319 parts [- $84 (half tensioner)] = $568.67
hmmm labor for timing belt and 2 cam seals last time.... $235.00
3.3 hrs belt and .5 hours for seals = 3.8 @ 235.00 (roughly $60/hour)
Sounds like I'm paying full price for the labor...
Yes confirmed with the shop... full timing belt labor, but no additional for the tensioner...
negotiations are underway...
Full timing belt job: 3.3 hours
2 Cam seals: .5 hours
Crank seal: .5 hours
4.3 hours
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Post by mrgalantguy on Feb 16, 2016 12:25:39 GMT -5
Dang man..sorry for the issue you have. I totally understand the frustration you have with having a shop do work for you and not meeting their end. I just had the same issue with mine recently and ended up redoing the work myself..fortunately it was just crap aftermarket cam seals they installed leaking BUT found out they never replaced the auto tensioner or front crank seal either.
Good thing is now that I did the work myself...I can do my it myself down the road again. My only wish is that the accessory belt was 1 single belt like my wifes big Montero with a auto tensioner. Makes life simpler and easier replacing stuff compared to the 3 belts and seperate tensioners to adjust them on the 3.0L.
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Post by redraif on Feb 16, 2016 12:42:13 GMT -5
Ok so back and forth we went... best I can get with full mitsu dealer parts plus tax = $450.57
Break down... $319.41 for parts
Labor for seals... 1.6 = $112 (got to check on this... thought only 1 hour for all seals) anyway...
Free oil change with my choice of oil, so they don't loose my business... ha!
No labor for the rest, but I have pay full price for the tensioner... ugh...
I guess since I said, "if you had replaced it when I said it before". Guess that one would have been on me since it was preventative. God help me! I tried my darndest, but I SUCK at negotiations.
Seriously I was not built with haggling skills..
Might be divorced over this one. Lord help the Sport if it has another issue or does not clear its emissions codes... the spouse has a match ready for him! UGH!
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Post by redraif on Feb 16, 2016 13:26:08 GMT -5
ok... someone thought it over and they opted to drop all labor charges.
So right around $338.57... Wow.. I'm quite surprised! Guess when I told them they blew the budget for the civics clutch they got to thinking...
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Post by jkdv8 on Feb 16, 2016 17:24:08 GMT -5
That's great red. Glad you got it straightened out.
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Not necessary on these. To do all that I listed is approaching $2K and if you don't do one of them you run the risk of having to tear it down again or even bigger problems except for maybe the exception of the cam sensor. I guess the point is you can try to be proactive all you want but at what point does it become absurd. Crap happens all the time and as the miles rack up the more likely chance that one of those will fail unexpectedly........ 
