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Post by ES_97Sport on Jul 26, 2016 15:42:19 GMT -5
You guys should look into these. It would require replacing the fans to but would be waaaaaaay more efficient. Not a bad price for brushless. Don't know what size those contour fans are. The controller runs two fans to, all digital. Probe or threaded temp sensor. Just run the power lead off a relay from a dash switch although the controller looks as if it mounts inside the vehicle. Word is the 16" fan pulls 9 amps at 2800cfm. NEVER mount any fan through the core using the stupid 'zip tie' setup most fans come with! That is a stupid idea on street only vehicles - especially with aluminum cores - and its beyond completely retarded on any off road vehicle. It doesn't come with a shroud and I have no intentions of recreating the wheel by building my own. And again - no shroud. There is a reason why OEM units use SHROUDS. The Ford Contour covers 382 sq in. Once 16" fan covers 201 sq in and two 12" fans cover about 226 sq in. The Ford Contour setup covers 181 sq in more than a 16" fan and 156 sq in more than two (2) 12" fans. In other words the 16" fan only covers 53% of the radiator core and the two 12" fans only cover 59% of the core. An un-shrouded setup can work ok on the highway, assuming adequate inflow through the grill, but if you want to see a vehicle overheat at idle or low speeds, any un-shrouded fan configuration is the 'poster child' setup. You can not put a big enough radiator in our vehicles to fix the problems this would create. Coolant is distributed relatively evenly across the core. It doesn't matter how 'efficient' those fans are in power usage, you are effectively loosing 47% and 41% respectively of your cooling capacity. Which directly translates into increased run-time and therefore fuel usage. The control box is useless 'bling'. Once the fans are set you do not need to keep screwing with them. Dash space is at a premium in our vehicles. "Most vehicles don't require 2,800 CFM of air (16" fan)." That's probably true - if the fans are shrouded. Otherwise, this borders on being a bald faced lie. And since "coolant is distributed relatively evenly across the core", it doesn't matter how many CFM the fan pulls, its STILL not using upwards of 50% of the core. Assuming that one would use the screw in sensor rather than the problematic 'radiator probe', installing it would really require installation like BD's. Drilling and taping the manifold. So, assuming someone used this, they'd be looking at around $550 for the kit + on 12" fan - because I can absolutely guarantee a 16" fan WILL NOT WORK - plus materials for a shroud and mounting @ another $100 or so. PLUS all the installers time that would be involved - no one's time is free - @ $8 hr, so at least another $70 but more like $140 because this would take an entire weekend most likely. Somewhere between $700-800 dollars total. This doesn't include machine work and labor to remove and install the manifold - another $50-150. Even if you add in an HO alternator, the Contour setup can be done for less than that, and it works. Its less complicated and the fan motors are commonly available for almost dirt nothing. I can get Contour fan motors from any auto supply, salvage yards or over the internet - anywhere. Stuff like this has no place in a off-road/expedition vehicle. Edward
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Post by ES_97Sport on Jul 26, 2016 15:58:18 GMT -5
Its got some pretty long wiring loom. Yes I thinks that's right it was the for the dual fans. The installation could be done in under an hour easily. I love the toggle switch because you can have it turn off all the way manually, turn off at highway speeds and have it turn off at a certain temp. Yea, I noticed that. I just don't think its such a good idea to be pulling a lot of amperage over that length of wire. The features are good. Just not for the big Sport right now. I need something simple - mostly I need a simple install that doesn't require tearing my dash apart. Again. I just don't have the time apart from the office right now. I'll readdress the F5 after the Aug trip for the '99 build. I talked this over and the lack of water and dust seal and the heat sensitivity are all major unknowns. We're going out for two weeks and due to the projected 'Bears Ears' monument closures, we're going to be doing a LOT of 200-300 mile drives out to the backside of nowhere. I wouldn't be surprised if we put on 2500 miles. This is going to be a four Jerry can trip, I think. I'm going to go ahead with a couple Derale 16795 controllers, leave one in the box for a spare just in case and swap to 8 AWG with a 60A breaker. That'll be minimally invasive and if I really have an issue, simple to jumper directly to the battery. I'll get everything up and running this weekend and see how it goes. Edward
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Post by bdmontero on Jul 26, 2016 15:59:37 GMT -5
Ya absolutely let me know how the derale goes. I'm interested as well. Good luck sir. Stay safe and have fun!
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Post by jkdv8 on Jul 26, 2016 18:23:07 GMT -5
I agree, but I was implying removing the stone aged brushed fans and replacing with these. Shrouds are littered all over the salvage yards. None of the aftermarket fans come with a shroud because the shroud is vehicle dependent. The contour fans have a shroud because they are pulled off of a ford contour radiator. They will also build you a shroud out of aluminum, albeit at a premium. Just wasn't sure of the contour fan size. You could also remove the mechanical, replace with the 16" version and mod the existing shroud without the controller. Just the fan is $180 I think. Only thing is he said the ecm is only good for 9,000 hrs ($100) vs the 50,000 hrs of the fan itself. 9,000 hrs though is still like 8hrs a day for 3 years or 2hrs a day for 12 years. They also have a smaller profile, are lighter, and will outlast the vehicle. Just the one 16" moves as much as the two contours at a quarter the power and a quarter of the weight. Sounds like a no brainer. What could you do with an extra 47.5 amps? That's a little over half of what the stock alt puts out. It doesn't sound like the controller is needed either unless you want complete control over two fans. The ecu for the fan is on the fan itself just fuzzy on when it kicks on without the controller. The later model manifolds have a sensor in place of where bd has his. Looks to be the coolant temp sender for the dash gauge. I do find it interesting though he's mentioned sporadic temp gauge issues since then so, whether or not that's what he did, I don't know. Just an observation. I don't know at what point they added that sensor there either. Regardless of which route you choose, if the controller requires a threaded coolant temp sensor, you would have to drill and tap a hole for the threaded coolant temp sensor. Here's a little more info I found on it. link
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Post by ES_97Sport on Jul 26, 2016 22:01:21 GMT -5
...Just the one 16" moves as much as the two contours at a quarter the power and a quarter of the weight. .... The Contour fans move close to 4000 CFM. This is an overpriced, likely overrated and over complicated 'mall crawler' solution. Not interested. Edward
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Post by bdmontero on Jul 27, 2016 0:30:42 GMT -5
Sorry the last part of the post is grossly wrong. The sensor for the fans and controller pull from the same coolant that the ECTS does. My sensor is NOWHERE near or hooked to the temp gauge sensor in any way shape or form. This post makes me wonder a little bit if you looked at the picture I posted earlier.
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Post by bdmontero on Jul 27, 2016 0:40:14 GMT -5
See the difference in temp gauge and ECT? Smaller red box is temp gauge area.
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Post by jkdv8 on Jul 27, 2016 17:13:02 GMT -5
The Contour fans move close to 4000 CFM. This is an overpriced, likely overrated and over complicated 'mall crawler' solution. Not interested. Edward Just thought I would share. Sounds like viable option. The fans you're using now were actually designed around a mall crawler/grocery getter so I don't really see the logic in that statement. That cfm in a real world scenario is highly unlikely. Similar fans are rated between 3400 and 3600cfm. There isn't any specs on them from the manufacturer and depending on who the biggest contour fan, fanboy is they rate anywhere from 2500-6200. You also need to consider if the rated cfm is before or after being installed on a radiator. I'm willing to bet most are rated as they are while these are rated installed on a 2 1/4" core. A stand alone fan rated at 3000cfm isn't going to pull that when mounted on a radiator. Now I'm sure the contours move a lot of air but without comparing it to a few different fans with known cfm there isn't anyway to tell unless you spend a lot of time and money testing it. Sorry the last part of the post is grossly wrong. The sensor for the fans and controller pull from the same coolant that the ECTS does. My sensor is NOWHERE near or hooked to the temp gauge sensor in any way shape or form. This post makes me wonder a little bit if you looked at the picture I posted earlier. Yea I saw the picture. What made me make the statement. I was looking at your new looking sensor, connector, wire, and loom to the left of the coolant temp sensor that snakes down the main power wire and appears to snake back up on top of the radiator. I know the years are different but on mine the temp sender for the dash gauge is in the spot you have that new sensor. What made me think about it.
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Post by ES_97Sport on Jul 27, 2016 17:13:25 GMT -5
Ya absolutely let me know how the derale goes. I'm interested as well. Good luck sir. Stay safe and have fun! BD, did you run across the forum posts on the Derale in re: the in-radiator temperature probe? I stumbled across the reviews on Summit Racing on the 16795. According to the reviews and Derale tech support, the in-radiator probe doesn't work very well (or at all) with 'high performance' aluminum radiators. I suspect that its more likely that the in-radiator probe doesn't work well with aluminum radiators in general. Anyway, according to the reviewers that have spoken to tech support, the solution is to use the screw-in temperature probe that Derale offers as an add-on. The radiator probe issue apparently causes problems where the cause appears to be a dead of defective controller, refusing to turn on the fans at all, at the set point, and or other erratic fan on/off behavior. Been there, got the tee-shirt. Sound like my 'Bird and the temp probe in my aluminum Howe race radiator, and that's just a cheap, simple control from AutoZone. Edward
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Post by ES_97Sport on Jul 27, 2016 17:31:55 GMT -5
Just thought I would share. Sounds like viable option. ^^^^ This is welcome. ^^^^ This is not. Stop trolling. Edward
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Post by bdmontero on Jul 27, 2016 17:35:40 GMT -5
I don't remember reading anything like that. That's why I just went ahead and used a dedicated screw in sensor. Figured that would give me the best reading all the time.
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Post by jkdv8 on Jul 27, 2016 17:45:52 GMT -5
The fans you're using now were actually designed around a mall crawler/grocery getter so I don't really see the logic in that statement. That cfm in a real world scenario is highly unlikely. Similar fans are rated between 3400 and 3600cfm. There isn't any specs on them from the manufacturer and depending on who the biggest contour fan, fanboy is they rate anywhere from 2500-6200. You also need to consider if the rated cfm is before or after being installed on a radiator. I'm willing to bet most are rated as they are while these are rated installed on a 2 1/4" core. A stand alone fan rated at 3000cfm isn't going to pull that when mounted on a radiator. Now I'm sure the contours move a lot of air but without comparing it to a few different fans with known cfm there isn't anyway to tell unless you spend a lot of time and money testing it. ^^^^ This is not. Stop trolling. Edward Lol, I don't see how pointing out the obvious is trolling but ok. Just because the truth makes you angry doesn't make it a trolling statement 🙄
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Post by ES_97Sport on Jul 28, 2016 17:46:38 GMT -5
I don't remember reading anything like that. That's why I just went ahead and used a dedicated screw in sensor. Figured that would give me the best reading all the time. My thinking as well. That was one of the top things I checked with the Derale - making sure I wasn't stuck with the radiator probe. I run one in the 'Bird and it's always been a PITA. I'm not entirely sure it'd work on my radiator, either. There were a couple posts about the sensor not being long enough for the 4/5" thick cores like I run. I'm going to have to relocate the sensor to the bottom hose. I have the Spal on the radiator inlet and Derale wants the sensor on the engine inlet. I have absolutely no idea what to expect there. Everything I've touched is either setup like yours or somewhere on the radiator inlet side. Configuring this thing may get a little interesting. I need to remember to take my IR thermometer and get a inlet and outlet temp reading on the radiator so I know what the temp drop in the radiator is. Fun stuff. Edward
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Post by bdmontero on Jul 28, 2016 21:00:30 GMT -5
Man that's crazy how each one is different. I guess that's expected though. Yes that's right you do have a different radiator. Could you buy an adapter or a different sensor?
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Post by ES_97Sport on Jul 28, 2016 22:20:53 GMT -5
Man that's crazy how each one is different. I guess that's expected though. Yes that's right you do have a different radiator. Could you buy an adapter or a different sensor? I've been up, down, backwards and forwards over this for 25 years. There is nothing that I can find or have learned that really supports any one way of positioning the probe. Except that using a push-in probe in the fins is stupid. That is done 'cause its cheap, non-invasive and it's super easy for the user to install - not because it works best. Mostly position just dependent on how the controller is programed/built and how they want it to work. To me it makes more sense to use the coolant temp AFTER the thermostat but BEFORE the radiator. Which is how the Spal is set up. But I realize that's just ingrained temperature switch configuration thinking. Yep, I have that monster that Griffon built for me. Derale sells a screw in sensor kit like yours and the one I have on my Spal setup so I got that, too. It'll screw into the radiator hose adapter I already have. I just need to move the adapter from the top hose to the bottom hose. Edward
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