Need feedback on electric radiator fan controlers
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Post by ES_97Sport on Aug 2, 2016 16:58:31 GMT -5
Ok. I think I got most of the stuff in. I still have a box of 8AWG connectors and the wire protector sheath in transit. I already have an inline radiator hose adapter for my Spal that has a 3/8" NPT hole. Its a 34mm that originally came with a 1/8", like almost all do. I had the shop machine out the hole and tap it some years ago so I'm all set. The Derale come with an add-on 3/8" NPT sensor as I mentioned above. For anyone else reading this, no, you can NOT just stick a 3/8" to 1/8" adapter in the hose adapter and expect that to work. Colted got the upper and lower hose inside diameter measurements noted in the link below ... Upper/Lower Radiator Hose DiameterI went through this before with the Spal sensor. For whatever reason, hose adapters with a 3/8" NPT hole are pretty scarce. I found the company below that makes a 1 3/8" with a 3/8" NPT sensor hole. Per colted's measurements, the hoses are pretty close to 34mm, or 1.338". 1 3/8" is 1.375". I don't expect 3-4 hundredths will be enough that a hose won't still fit. Anyway, I ordered one for the '99 build so I'll check it when it shows up against a couple spare upper and lower OEM radiator hoses. LCE Performance - Water Temp Sender Manifold (Inline Radiator Hose)BTW, unlike my current piece, this one does not have a screw for a ground wire. Depending on the type of sensor, one may or may not be necessary. Generally, if the sensor uses two wires a separate ground wire is not necessary. A sensor/switch that only has one wire requires a separate ground wire to complete the sensor/switch circuit. And don't use Teflon tape on the latter, either, since the ground is through the body of the sensor to the manifold. I'll snap pics as I do the install for those that are interested. Edward
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Post by jkdv8 on Aug 3, 2016 21:28:39 GMT -5
Ok. I think I got most of the stuff in. I still have a box of 8AWG connectors and the wire protector sheath in transit. I already have an inline radiator hose adapter for my Spal that has a 3/8" NPT hole. Its a 34mm that originally came with a 1/8", like almost all do. I had the shop machine out the hole and tap it some years ago so I'm all set. The Derale come with an add-on 3/8" NPT sensor as I mentioned above. For anyone else reading this, no, you can NOT just stick a 3/8" to 1/8" adapter in the hose adapter and expect that to work. Colted got the upper and lower hose inside diameter measurements noted in the link below ... Upper/Lower Radiator Hose DiameterI went through this before with the Spal sensor. For whatever reason, hose adapters with a 3/8" NPT hole are pretty scarce. I found the company below that makes a 1 3/8" with a 3/8" NPT sensor hole. Per colted's measurements, the hoses are pretty close to 34mm, or 1.338". 1 3/8" is 1.375". I don't expect 3-4 hundredths will be enough that a hose won't still fit. Anyway, I ordered one for the '99 build so I'll check it when it shows up against a couple spare upper and lower OEM radiator hoses. LCE Performance - Water Temp Sender Manifold (Inline Radiator Hose)BTW, unlike my current piece, this one does not have a screw for a ground wire. Depending on the type of sensor, one may or may not be necessary. Generally, if the sensor uses two wires a separate ground wire is not necessary. A sensor/switch that only has one wire requires a separate ground wire to complete the sensor/switch circuit. And don't use Teflon tape on the latter, either, since the ground is through the body of the sensor to the manifold. I'll snap pics as I do the install for those that are interested. Edward Speaking of adapters, the best place for the coolant temp sensor is as close to the thermostat as possible on the engine side. If I were you I would use your obd scanner to look at the coolant temp and use that to set the on temp of the controller regardless of what the sensor on the adapter reads. Also, using Teflon tape prevents the opportunity of a leak but you should make sure there is metal to metal contact. 2 or 3 layers of the first few threads would suffice. Most of the sensors base bottom out and touches anyhow.
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Post by ES_97Sport on Aug 4, 2016 16:02:56 GMT -5
... Speaking of adapters, the best place for the coolant temp sensor is as close to the thermostat as possible on the engine side. If I were you I would use your obd scanner to look at the coolant temp and use that to set the on temp of the controller regardless of what the sensor on the adapter reads. And, I really wish you were correct. That would eliminate one more thing I have to change. The Derale explicitly states that the sensor must be placed as close to the outlet of the radiator as possible when using the supplied 'push in' temperature probe, or at the outlet if you have a bung or in the return hose (to the engine) as close to the radiator outlet as possible. I've read several reviews from people that have talked to Derale tech support about this and they are adamant about the placement. DC Control says the same thing for their units. There's an explanation of why this the optimal location somewhere on DC's site, but I can't find it now. DC advertises their unit as a 'constant temperature controller' and AFAIKT the Derale unit operates the same way. I know from research I did years ago and some stuff I read not too long ago on the DC unit that it's 'programed' around dealing with the 20-or-so odd degree drop between the radiator inlet and outlet. Setting it to the thermostat opening temperature of 190 degrees say, and then putting the probe at the thermostat outlet/radiator inlet would totally throw off whatever passes for the fan control algorithm. That's basically what I do/did with the Spal. The difference between the Spal and the Derale/DCControl units is that the Spal had a turn on set point and a high set point. At n degrees the primary fan turned on at 50% and went up to 100% as the temperature increased until it hit the upper set point at which time the primary was at 100% and the secondary kicked on at 100%. A 10 degree drop in temperature turned off the secondary fan and the primary would decrease speed until it was at 50% at the lower set point and then turn off below that temperature. And the temp was coming off the engine outlet. Pretty straight forward stuff. The Derale/DCControl setup is, 'set it at the temp your want the engine to run at and we take care of the rest'. PFM. I HATE PFM! If the magic doesn't happen, you have no idea how anything works so you don't know what to do to try to make it work. Anyway, they say to set it to the opening temp of the thermostat, which on ours is about 192/193 or so. So, I'll probably just follow the directions, set it at 190 per the table + 1 turn. 1 turn = 3.5 degrees. That'll put me right about the thermostat opening temp. And see what happens. If anyone happens to run across any details of how this thing works and/or someone that's actually installed it and bothered to describe how it actually worked, please post up a link. Edward
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Post by jkdv8 on Aug 4, 2016 18:07:35 GMT -5
Well typically that's where the coolant temp sensors are. I don't think the oem one is next to the thermostat either. Didn't know you were using the probe type. Placing it there however is kinda odd because the coolant temp in the engine is the main concern. Just seems like a convoluted way to go about it but yea I would follow the instructions for it.
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Post by bdmontero on Aug 4, 2016 19:43:05 GMT -5
Yes the ECT is by the thermostat on the 97 on mine. Just above it.
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Post by ES_97Sport on Aug 5, 2016 15:45:19 GMT -5
LCE Performance temperature sender hose manifold. 1 3/8" x 3/8" NPT. The pictures below show the manifold installed on a Gen 1/Gen 2 lower radiator hose. Apparently the hose manifolds now comes with a ground screw already installed, contrary to what their web page says. I don't need it but it was nice to see. I had no issues installing the manifold in the new OEM Mitsubishi hose. It was a LITTLE tight, but only slightly more maybe than putting the hose on the engine water neck. Its definitely not going to be a restriction, at least. This is a machined piece, not cast. You can see the machine marks in the close up picture. Excellent quality as far as I can see. LCE's response was scary good! I ordered it late in the after noon and it showed up in three days. And they packaged it well, too. I'm going to use this one for the Derale installation. My big Sport is also my DD so if the install goes sideways somehow, I figured if I didn't dink with the Spal stuff too much I could just yank the Derale out, hook the Spal back up and I'd be good. I don't need both fans for driving around town back and forth to work even in 100 degree weather. So, I'll just leave the top hose assembly for the Spal in place until I'm sure the Derale works. After I'm comfortable I'll pull the top hose and manifold and replace it with one of the new hoses I picked up. Edward
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Post by ES_97Sport on Aug 5, 2016 15:59:52 GMT -5
Well typically that's where the coolant temp sensors are. I don't think the oem one is next to the thermostat either. Didn't know you were using the probe type. Placing it there however is kinda odd because the coolant temp in the engine is the main concern. Just seems like a convoluted way to go about it but yea I would follow the instructions for it. Yep. Been that way forever. I seem to vaguely remember at least one, maybe two, OEM installs where the sensor was on the water pump and/or at the pump inlet, on something REALLY OLD. Predating the '70s anyway. Nothing I ever owned or drove. But, yes, I agree. Uh, huh. Convoluted seems like a good description. I'll have time tonight. I'm going to go back through DC's site and find the explanation for this type of setup. I remember he said it was supposed to yield more consistent and tighter engine temperature and something about the fans being able to spin down further (and/or turn off) at higher vehicle speeds where locating the probe at the radiator inlet made them run higher and longer and not spin down as far (or turn off). The entire point of both the DC and Derale is to maintain the set point or within +/- a few degrees. I think one of them said something like 3/4 degrees +/-. So, the controllers ramp up and down the fans continuously to accomplish this. THAT I understand. How having it on the outlet vs the inlet I'm a little fuzzy on. With the Spal, a couple others, and switches/relays, the above isn't possible. Those rely on a swing of temperature to actuate the fans. Anyway, yea, I'm just going to follow the instructions and see what happens. Edward
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Post by jkdv8 on Aug 6, 2016 11:57:41 GMT -5
Yea I'm not quite sure how having it on the outlet is going to be beneficial. That would make it dependent on the efficiency of the fans and radiator to determine the set points. I guess their theory is monitoring the temp of the coolant entering the engine to keep it the right temp rather than measuring the hot that has cycled through the engine. Doing it that way however makes me think you would need a sensor on both ends to keep the coolant where it needs to be. Idk.
That is a nice looking adapter by the way.
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Post by ES_97Sport on Aug 10, 2016 15:58:25 GMT -5
BD, did you hook up the wire to the A/C on your F5? If so, which wire did you hook into? I spoke to our HVAC guy today at the office. I wanted to clarify a couple things and double check that what I thought I knew was actually correct. Lack/insufficient air flow DEFINITELY affects A/C cooling performance. Which means like as not, some peoples complaints about 'not blowing cold enough' when everything is operating normally is probably insufficient air flow through the condenser. Which I would attribute to the clutch fan. You'd mentioned pulling the aux A/C fan now that you were running the Contour fans because it seemed unnecessary. I specifically wanted to know whether it was actually possible to have too much air flow through the condenser. I thought I already knew the answer but I wanted to make sure. He said, yes, it is possible. I was fiddling around with my A/C Sunday night to make sure it was working before we take off next week. The thought occurred to me while I was listening to both radiator fans running 100% + the A/C fan. I have no idea how much is too much or how to figure that out. I'm not sure its even possible to have a problem as the aux A/C fan doesn't run 100% of the time the A/C is on anyway. He did say that there shouldn't be any reason why we would have to maintain the aux fan if there's sufficient air flow through the condenser from the Ford fans. I believe the entire point of that fan is to compensate for low air flow at idle or near idle - which the Ford fans more than take care of. Edward
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Post by bdmontero on Aug 10, 2016 16:58:26 GMT -5
I hadn't pulled it yet. But was contemplating it. I hooked onto the main clutch cycle wire. It was a green wire. It cycles on and off as it should😆 you want me to be a guniea pig and try it?
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Post by ES_97Sport on Aug 10, 2016 18:31:00 GMT -5
I hadn't pulled it yet. But was contemplating it. I hooked onto the main clutch cycle wire. It was a green wire. It cycles on and off as it should😆 you want me to be a guniea pig and try it? Cool! That's what I needed to know. I never hooked that up on the Spal. It was never necessary. A/C always functioned fine for the precious little time I use it. Now that I'm contemplating pulling the aux fan completely, I think it might be a good idea to hook that up on the Derale controller. If the Ford fans spin down without the aux fan in place, they're not going to have any idea that the A/C is on and need to be running irrespective of what the coolant temp is. lol! I won't say no, but I think I already know what the result will be. Its been so long since I looked, but the A/C fan had a connector behind the grill, right? Should be an easy test if all that's required is to disconnect the plug. Or just pull the fuse. doh! I think the fan is on its own fuse under the dash. Man, I am slow today. I won't have time to pull the fan before we leave, but I should have time to hook into the A/C. It'd be nice to know for sure before we get out there that I can at least disconnect the aux fan. Wheeling out there with the windows down, the A/C on and all three fans going is LOUD. One less would kinda nice! Edward
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Post by bdmontero on Aug 10, 2016 18:52:24 GMT -5
I wonder of I could just pull the fuse?
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Post by ES_97Sport on Aug 10, 2016 18:57:06 GMT -5
I wonder of I could just pull the fuse? I know the fuse is under the dash. I've had to replace it before and the tech replaced mine a couple weeks ago and mentioned replacing the fuse under the dash. That would probably be the easiest. AFAIK, that is the only thing on that fuse. I think I'd try that rather than trying to get into the grill - then you don't have to worry about rain shorting a disconnected plug. Edward
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Post by bdmontero on Aug 10, 2016 19:52:19 GMT -5
Okay just got back from in town driving and speeds above 45-50. Gauge was solid the entire time! Didn't move above halfway. So I will be removing the condensor fan and that should improve airflow and reduce electric drag on the alternator!!!!!!
Update: drove around today and yesterday again and its still holding at the halfway point!
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Post by ES_97Sport on Aug 15, 2016 15:40:02 GMT -5
Thanks, BD! I got the A/C wire hooked up on Sunday. What a PITA. I ended up using the crappy supplied wire tap as I didn't have a butt connector that small. There is NO WAY I can run this like this through winter. When they start dumping deicer that'll be the end of my wiring harness. I have a box of Ancor butt connectors on the way that'll be here Wed morning. Figure I'll pack my good crimper and little butane torch and fix that permanently when we get out to Green River. I went through the FSMs Sunday morning because I seemed to remember that the Spal recommended a different connection for the A/C wire. Their first recommendation is to connect to the trinary switch at the accumulator. We apparently don't have a trinary switch, its a dual switch. As best as I can tell it serves the same purpose, but with on less wire. According to Spal, that is the recommended location because sometimes the fan(s) need to run irrespective of whether the compressor is on for optimal condenser operation. I THINK that the binary switch can be taped to get the same functionality but I don't know enough HVAC to say for sure. Going through the FSMs wasn't very helpful either. It'll take some more research. Everything is working hooked up to the compressor, though. I did a test run up one of the canyons for about 15 miles in 3rd with the A/C on in 85F and I think I finally managed to get the thermostat most if not all the way open, but that was it. All goodness. Okay just got back from in town driving and speeds above 45-50. Gauge was solid the entire time! Didn't move above halfway. So I will be removing the condensor fan and that should improve airflow and reduce electric drag on the alternator!!!!!! Update: drove around today and yesterday again and its still holding at the halfway point! Cool! That should be real close to 203 if your's is running like mine. Getting everything hooked up on mine and going for a drive made me think of something, though that I especially wanted to document for others ... On the Derale controller the fans run easily less than 40% of road time even in +85-90F. Two things ... 1) If the A/C aux fan is removed, the A/C wire from the controller ABSOLUTELY MUST be wired in as there will be no air flow at all over the condenser without the primary fan(s) running. That is serious badness. 2) My A/C aux fan seems to run sometimes with the compressor off. (seems to validate the Spal statement) With the A/C wire hooked to the compressor, that means that the primary fan(s) will be off possibly when the condenser needs air flow. Assuming the A/C controller wire is connected, where I can see this being a problem is where the primary cooling fan(s) turn completely off. This can happen when ECT is down and the controller turns the fans off AND the A/C compressor is cycled off (the A/C circuit in the controller is off, switching the primary fan(s) back to normal operation and therefore off). There are two situations where this currently happens. Very low load - i.e. long down hill stretches where little heat is generated and normal airflow is sufficient to cool - AND at idle. In the last two weeks I've driven where the fans are completely off for 10-15-20 miles at a time. At idle the fans will typically run for a minute or two and then spin down and stay off for 10-15 minutes before cycling back on. I've checked ECT to confirm everything is operating correctly and the coolant temps are rock solid and tight so this appears to be normal operation. I don't know IF this could be a problem or even how big a problem if it is. This may not be a problem with the F5 if it doesn't turn the fans off as often (or at all, just spins them down a bit) OR it may be I'm seeing such dramatic amounts of 'fan off' time because of my huge radiator. At this point, without doing more research, I'm a little leery of pulling the A/C aux fan. From what I could get from the FSMs, it looks like they have the functionally of the trinary switch built in to the circuits which activates the aux fan irrespective of the compressor. To me that means the aux fan is serving a necessary function and if we can't supply that, disconnecting the A/C aux fan may not be such a good idea. I obviously have no time left to experiment or do more research at this point as I'm in the middle of packing to leave Thurs morning. But IMHO I think it'd be a good idea if we can get the primary fan(s) to replicate the functionality as close as possible before pulling the A/C aux fan. Edward
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