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Post by ES_97Sport on Nov 21, 2016 19:41:38 GMT -5
In regards to the engine I think the 3.5 is a slight bit bigger than the 3.0. From doing work on my friends 3.5 it sits closer to the firewall as well as being closer to everyhing up front. No, the 3.5L doesn't sit closer to the firewall than my 3.0L did and it appears that the '99 3.5L is the same distance from the FW as my '03 3.5L. The tech's opinion was that they're (the 3.0L and 3.5L) pretty much the same in that respect. On this I agree with the tech. If that were the case, we would have had to relocate the transmission back to get the engine to fit and we didn't need to do anything. I don't remember measuring the location of the motor mount bosses between the 3.0L and 3.5L so I don't know if they're the same distance from the front and rear of the block. I do know that the motor mounts and motor mount frame brackets are located in EXACTLY the same location between the 3.0L and 3.5L. As I said above, we swapped the frame plates and the brackets welded on in the exact same location as the original brackets. Unfortunately, that doesn't tell you a whole lot other than the engines are interchangeable-ish. I do know - for sure - that the 3.0L and 3.5L from the Montero and Montero Sport given similar years and model generations are completely interchangeable and in fact are the SAME. In other words, a 3.0L from a '98 will bolt in place of a 3.0L in a '03, and from experience a '02 3.5L will bolt in place of a '97 3.0L. The actual engine dimensions didn't change between '97 and '04. The 3.5L in a '99 is not a different length than a 3.5L in a '02. The deck height of a 3.5L is TALLER than a 3.0L - which is why you can't swap intake stuff - but that's got nothing to do with the length. I believe the 3.5L block is actually .75-1.5" longer than the 3.0L. I know its a LITTLE longer because I noticed the difference when we swapped the engines in the '97 but not nearly as much as I think I'm seeing. Something I DO NOT know is that they didn't change the location of the engine in the '99. The Gen 1 in general was designed for a Mitsubishi version of the AW4 Jeep automatic transmission and a Mitsu M/T, but the '99 Limited got the Gen 2 A/T that came in the '00+. I'm wondering if to get the 3.5L and the new trans to fit within the Gen 1 envelope without having to produce a bunch of exra bits and pieces, they didn't just located everything an 1" or 2" forward. Like I said, I'll drop by the dealership tomorrow and get a measurement. I've got the '03 at home and I'm driving the big '97 so I'll take measurements off those as well. I don't think I'm imagining things, but you never know. I guess its kinda academic. The plan is to relocate the engine and transmission 1" up for better clearance of the cross-over steering so relocating it back and inch or two if necessary isn't going to be a big deal. In fact it won't be any kind of deal at all since the OEM t-case is coming out and the transmission and t-cases will be cable operated. The only thing I have to make sure I don't screw up is the access between the FW and the engine so the tech can do maintenance without any (more) issues than normal. I'm going to have to re-think this a little now and talk to the tech tomorrow. Idealy, one would want to relocate the engine as far back as possible, but .... Mmmmmm. Edward
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Post by ES_97Sport on Nov 22, 2016 16:48:15 GMT -5
Ok, so I measured my three 3.5L Sports today. I took measurements form the core to the face of the power steering pulley. All measurements are about +/- 1/8". Note: I took the measurements to the aluminum CORE, not the tank. 2003 Limited 3.5L AWD - 4.5" 1999 Limited 3.5L 4WD - 5" 1997 LS 3.5L conversion - 6.25" (the 3.5L engine is a 2002) (I forgot to measure my '97 3.0L this morning. I'll measure that one tomorrow morning.) I have the engine in the '97 tilted back slightly for a better rear DS angle so there's about .25" more than I believe should be there if the engine/trans/t-case assembly was sitting 'normally'. Sooooo, that would put the '97 @ 6". BD, if you get a chance, can you measure yours? It would be useful if some other readers could measure their Sports as well, especially if someone could post the measurement from a 3.5L 4WD Gen 2. Ultimately this won't affect my '99 build other than in addition to relocating the engine 1" higher, we will have to move the engine rearward 1" to recover the 1" difference between the '97 and '99 in case I have to install a larger radiator. Anyway, I have no idea what's going on here. The only thing that I can come up with that makes any sense is that the engine location was shifted to accommodate a length difference between transmissions and/or transfer cases. 3.5L OWNERS: For anyone considering the Contour fan conversion, MEASURE before starting this project! The Ford Contour fans depth is 3.3". The depth to the back of the fan shroud is about 3". Based on my measurements, that would leave ABOUT 1.5" between the back of the fans and the P/S belt. Since the fans are staggered, that will give a little more clearance between the fans and the front of the engine, but not much. There may not be enough clearance between the back of the fans and the engine to allow for adequate air flow and that will cause cooling issues. YMMV Edward
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Post by ES_97Sport on Nov 25, 2016 16:53:59 GMT -5
BD, do you have a Ford P/N for the Motorcraft fan motors?
Edward
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Post by bdmontero on Nov 25, 2016 21:04:28 GMT -5
Funny you ask. I'm about to go see a friend tomorrow that works at a Ford dealership. He's the lead technician in Stillwater. I'll get one tomorrow for you. I'll most likely order two motors for myself tomorrow for giggles and grins.
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Post by bdmontero on Nov 25, 2016 21:11:10 GMT -5
I just texted him and this is what he sent me.
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Post by jkdv8 on Nov 25, 2016 21:39:04 GMT -5
In regards to the engine I think the 3.5 is a slight bit bigger than the 3.0. From doing work on my friends 3.5 it sits closer to the firewall as well as being closer to everyhing up front. No, the 3.5L doesn't sit closer to the firewall than my 3.0L did and it appears that the '99 3.5L is the same distance from the FW as my '03 3.5L. The tech's opinion was that they're (the 3.0L and 3.5L) pretty much the same in that respect. On this I agree with the tech. If that were the case, we would have had to relocate the transmission back to get the engine to fit and we didn't need to do anything. I don't remember measuring the location of the motor mount bosses between the 3.0L and 3.5L so I don't know if they're the same distance from the front and rear of the block. I do know that the motor mounts and motor mount frame brackets are located in EXACTLY the same location between the 3.0L and 3.5L. As I said above, we swapped the frame plates and the brackets welded on in the exact same location as the original brackets. Unfortunately, that doesn't tell you a whole lot other than the engines are interchangeable-ish. I do know - for sure - that the 3.0L and 3.5L from the Montero and Montero Sport given similar years and model generations are completely interchangeable and in fact are the SAME. In other words, a 3.0L from a '98 will bolt in place of a 3.0L in a '03, and from experience a '02 3.5L will bolt in place of a '97 3.0L. The actual engine dimensions didn't change between '97 and '04. The 3.5L in a '99 is not a different length than a 3.5L in a '02. The deck height of a 3.5L is TALLER than a 3.0L - which is why you can't swap intake stuff - but that's got nothing to do with the length. I believe the 3.5L block is actually .75-1.5" longer than the 3.0L. I know its a LITTLE longer because I noticed the difference when we swapped the engines in the '97 but not nearly as much as I think I'm seeing. Something I DO NOT know is that they didn't change the location of the engine in the '99. The Gen 1 in general was designed for a Mitsubishi version of the AW4 Jeep automatic transmission and a Mitsu M/T, but the '99 Limited got the Gen 2 A/T that came in the '00+. I'm wondering if to get the 3.5L and the new trans to fit within the Gen 1 envelope without having to produce a bunch of exra bits and pieces, they didn't just located everything an 1" or 2" forward. Like I said, I'll drop by the dealership tomorrow and get a measurement. I've got the '03 at home and I'm driving the big '97 so I'll take measurements off those as well. I don't think I'm imagining things, but you never know. I guess its kinda academic. The plan is to relocate the engine and transmission 1" up for better clearance of the cross-over steering so relocating it back and inch or two if necessary isn't going to be a big deal. In fact it won't be any kind of deal at all since the OEM t-case is coming out and the transmission and t-cases will be cable operated. The only thing I have to make sure I don't screw up is the access between the FW and the engine so the tech can do maintenance without any (more) issues than normal. I'm going to have to re-think this a little now and talk to the tech tomorrow. Idealy, one would want to relocate the engine as far back as possible, but .... Mmmmmm. Edward Hmm maybe it's just the heads then. I noticed it's a tighter fit doing cam seals on one even if you factor out the brake lines being in the way on mine. The block, trans, and motor mounts can all line up but that doesn't necessarily mean that everything bolted to the block is going to sit in the same place. Take the intake you mentioned for example.
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Post by ES_97Sport on Nov 28, 2016 18:11:26 GMT -5
Funny you ask. I'm about to go see a friend tomorrow that works at a Ford dealership. He's the lead technician in Stillwater. I'll get one tomorrow for you. I'll most likely order two motors for myself tomorrow for giggles and grins. DANG IT! Sorry! I meant 'the fan motor CONNECTORS', not the motors. I already have those. That's still interesting, though. I was under the impression you couldn't get the motors from Ford anymore. Edward
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Post by bdmontero on Nov 28, 2016 18:12:45 GMT -5
Sure! I'll text him asap.
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Post by ES_97Sport on Nov 28, 2016 18:26:28 GMT -5
... Hmm maybe it's just the heads then. I noticed it's a tighter fit doing cam seals on one even if you factor out the brake lines being in the way on mine. .... No idea. The more I look at this the less sense it makes. When I get a chance I'm going to measure from the back of the engine to the firewall and see what that looks like. Except that everything bolted to the block on a '99 3.5L is in the same location as a '02 or '03 3.5L. I'm not comparing 3.0L engines and 3.5L engines. Just the 3.5L. I'm starting to think more and more that this has to do with transmission and t-case length differences and minimizing having to have a bunch if just slightly different parts (like drive shafts). It makes no sense from a performance standpoint - you'd want to move the engine BACK towards a more mid-engine position, not forwards. That would be really stupid. Edward
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Post by bdmontero on Dec 5, 2016 15:35:21 GMT -5
... Hmm maybe it's just the heads then. I noticed it's a tighter fit doing cam seals on one even if you factor out the brake lines being in the way on mine. .... No idea. The more I look at this the less sense it makes. When I get a chance I'm going to measure from the back of the engine to the firewall and see what that looks like. Except that everything bolted to the block on a '99 3.5L is in the same location as a '02 or '03 3.5L. I'm not comparing 3.0L engines and 3.5L engines. Just the 3.5L. I'm starting to think more and more that this has to do with transmission and t-case length differences and minimizing having to have a bunch if just slightly different parts (like drive shafts). It makes no sense from a performance standpoint - you'd want to move the engine BACK towards a more mid-engine position, not forwards. That would be really stupid. Edward A little off subject but I ordered a 70 amp and 80 amp circuit breaker. I'd rather be out in the middle of nowhere and have a circuit breaker pop instead of a fuse. Lol. So I'll keep the 70 amp fuse as a backup and install the 70 amp circuit breaker. I'm gonna do the fuse/relay/circuit block too soon Ed just to keep things looking neat, easy to diagnose if needed and professional looking. I just pulled out 4-5 wires that didn't lead to anything and some were even hot! Lol ☺
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Post by ES_97Sport on Dec 5, 2016 20:50:08 GMT -5
... A little off subject but I ordered a 70 amp and 80 amp circuit breaker. I'd rather be out in the middle of nowhere and have a circuit breaker pop instead of a fuse. Lol. So I'll keep the 70 amp fuse as a backup and install the 70 amp circuit breaker. I'm gonna do the fuse/relay/circuit block too soon Ed just to keep things looking neat, easy to diagnose if needed and professional looking. I just pulled out 4-5 wires that didn't lead to anything and some were even hot! Lol ☺ You do have a point there. Oh, don't even go there! I found one on the big Sport last weekend and I have no idea why its there or what it was for as it doesn't seem to go to anything. lol! I am SO looking forward to ripping all the wiring out of that thing and starting over next summer. Edward
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Post by ES_97Sport on Dec 13, 2016 16:26:48 GMT -5
The aftermarket ones were 12 guage. The true OEM one was 10. It was the actual metal terminal that pushed out. Made it a living hell to trace with a meter. Lol I figured out what it going on here I think. There are three identical connectors on the Contour dual fan assembly harness. Two, one for each fan motor, and one for the thermostat looking thing in the lower left (DR) side corner. The connectors are identical EXCEPT it looked like the fan motor connectors are 10 AWG and the 'thermostat' connector is 12 AWG. I spent some time looking at the original OEM setup over Thanksgiving. I also lucked out and found a complete OEM harness on ebay for like $15 so I picked that up. I thought I knew what I'd find but I wanted to know for sure and I wanted the harness for the connectors so that was a good deal. When I compared the connectors on the OEM harness, the fan motor wiring is 10 AWG and the thermostat wiring is 12 AWG. So it looks to me like all the aftermarket suppliers are selling the same 12 AWG connector with pigtails as the connector for both the thermostat and motors. Maybe there's another P/N for the fan motor connectors with the correct gauge pigtails, but AFAIKT the only way to tell would be to get a box, open it and check. Everything I've found lists the same P/N for both the motors and thermostat. At this point its just not worth my time to figure this out one way or the other. Anyway, as far as what this means in a practical application - if one were to wire the connectors up as I did earlier in this thread, its a total of about 44" of 12 AWG, +/- around 4". I think my pigtails were about 10-11" long. 12 AWG should be good up to 24" (two 12" lengths per connector), with a 2% voltage drop. This is assuming one uses a variable speed PWM controller with 'soft start' motor start up. Without the PWM controller I would definitely want the 10 AWG connectors. Edward
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Post by bdmontero on Dec 13, 2016 16:28:46 GMT -5
Man good find! I didn't even think of that! So the thermostat is different?
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Post by ES_97Sport on Dec 13, 2016 17:03:08 GMT -5
Man good find! I didn't even think of that! So the thermostat is different? That thermostat thingy in the lower left corner? Same plug, different gauge wire. Yea, I don't know why I didn't make the connection (so to speak) sooner. It didn't really occur to me until I was cutting the plastic thermostat 'bubble' off the shroud a few weeks ago. And it probably STILL wouldn't have clicked except I'd worked with a complete OEM harness for the first conversion and had noticed those plugs were the same then. I even saved the 'extra' back when. Took a while to relearn everything. BTW, do you have the Ford P/Ns for the plugs with pigtails for the motors? Edward
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Post by bdmontero on Dec 13, 2016 17:07:22 GMT -5
Man good find! I didn't even think of that! So the thermostat is different? That thermostat thingy in the lower left corner? Same plug, different gauge wire. Yea, I don't know why I didn't make the connection (so to speak) sooner. It didn't really occur to me until I was cutting the plastic thermostat 'bubble' off the shroud a few weeks ago. And it probably STILL wouldn't have clicked except I'd worked with a complete OEM harness for the first conversion and had noticed those plugs were the same then. I even saved the 'extra' back when. Took a while to relearn everything. BTW, do you have the Ford P/Ns for the plugs with pigtails for the motors? Edward The male and female ones? I actually pulled ones from a Ford focus and a Taurus. The ones from the Ford focus are the exact same as I could take a female plug from the Taurus and a male plug from the focus and they'd click right together. I'll try to dog them up I got them somewhere. ☺
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