Solid axle swap underway.
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Post by bdmontero on Aug 1, 2016 14:56:51 GMT -5
Okay I would definitely just order the axles prebuilt. I have no desire to spend hours in the garage cussing and sanding anyway. Lol
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Post by ES_97Sport on Aug 1, 2016 17:27:51 GMT -5
Okay I would definitely just order the axles prebuilt. I have no desire to spend hours in the garage cussing and sanding anyway. Lol Yea, its nothing difficult, but it is REALLY time consuming. Stripping everything down, cutting/grinding off the brackets, hauling the housing down to be blasted, repainting, .... Couple weekends worth of work just getting everything ready to mount + shop time for the gears and lockers. And they still would be OEM parts. I can live without the cutting and grinding part. lol! I have a shop in town that will bead blast and coat but they're not cheap and the two week turnaround sucks sorta. Ordering pre-built is just a lot easier. Even if it weren't, I think Eric at the shop had the right take on it. There's still lots of cheap OEM iron out there, but its not always easy to find and some of the critical parts are no longer available. Like the front D44 wheel studs for my axle. Everything except for the stock 7/16" short studs was discontinued in 2002-2004. I had no idea until I started looking for studs a couple weeks ago. Time to buy a few boxes of wheel studs. Eventually they'll stop making even those and then .... Starting out with axles that are using 2000+ technology ensures a good long life for whatever you build. BTW, you're still planning on radius arms for the front, right? Edward
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Post by bdmontero on Aug 1, 2016 21:05:07 GMT -5
Absolutely. What's your advice on those? Like factory/stock or upgrade? Have some time to research while the Montero is in the shop. BTW who/where are you having the new SAS done? I'm seriously not even joking about having them do mine too. Tired of people not returning messages and calls around here.
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Post by jkdv8 on Aug 2, 2016 15:37:16 GMT -5
Money talks. Or they think you're crazy or a prank caller Probably be best to stop by the shops and talk one on one with them. If you look at it from their viewpoint, The little bit they would make hardly compensates for the potential of multiple lawsuits should something bad happen. In some states it's also illegal to alter the frame in any shape or form.
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Post by bdmontero on Aug 2, 2016 15:45:59 GMT -5
Ya I told them I have the cash just need to set a date. Every person I called on 5-6 people and no one returns my calls. Tired of it. Even with the tire carrier. I'm seriously fixing to sell this thing and get something more aftermarket friendly.
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Post by ES_97Sport on Aug 2, 2016 18:49:44 GMT -5
Absolutely. What's your advice on those? Like factory/stock or upgrade? Have some time to research while the Montero is in the shop. BTW who/where are you having the new SAS done? I'm seriously not even joking about having them do mine too. Tired of people not returning messages and calls around here. ... Money talks. Or they think you're crazy or a prank caller Probably be best to stop by the shops and talk one on one with them. If you look at it from their viewpoint, The little bit they would make hardly compensates for the potential of multiple lawsuits should something bad happen. In some states it's also illegal to alter the frame in any shape or form. Most of it has to do with getting them to understand that you're SERIOUS and not some stupid kid harassing them and wasting their time. It took me 3 months to convince the shop here to do the big Sport and I still think they didn't really think I'd do it until I wrote them a check for most of the parts. And then there's the problems with what they'll make of the SAS vs. what they'd make off of three hundred oil changes. The shop that did the original SAS isn't interested in doing a second because for them its a money loosing deal. They can make more off a bunch of cookie cutter deals that don't tie up resources like oil changes and generic Jeep lift kit installations AND they can have cheaper, less skilled techs. And, no, 'money' does not talk. Even if you're willing to throw 1.5-2X the cost of the job at them so they don't loose money, they still don't have the technical labor pool necessary to do the job. Honest companies will understand this and turn away the business. That's kind of a problem with shops that I've been talking to my business partner with. The tech that did my SAS was very good. Professional trained welder and engineer. I've had numerous people that know what they're doing look at the big Sport and think it came from the factory that way. AND about a year or so after my SAS was done, he left and started a commercial building fabrication business. People who are REALLY good at what they do at advanced levels, are really hard to keep unless they're constantly doing stuff that keeps them challenged and compensated at their level. Being a grease monkey 90% of the time doesn't really do it for people like that. That has almost nothing to do with it. Even the states were this is the case, shops will do it under the guise of 'for off-road use only'. I thought I had a guy but he dropped of the planet. I spoke to a guy that was at the shop where the original SAS was done who referred me to another shop just down the street that allegedly was tickled pink at the opportunity. I've been too busy with the office move, a flaky employee, a tech with a broken foot :rolleyes:, stupid electric fan nonsense, and trying to get house stuff done before the snow flies here in another month or so. And trying to take a vacation. I'll give Jason a call and have him hook me back up with them this week. I'm ready to get the preliminary stuff started, so ... time to get off my butt. I'll let you know what I find out. Jason started just as they were finishing up the SAS in '02 and he's been around the truck and me for a long time. He knows pretty much what I'm looking for and need so I imagine the guys he wants me to talk to are pretty decent. I'm glad they're enthusiastic about doing it. That seems to be the hard part in this project. Ok. Here's where I am with the radius arms. I really, really, REALLY want to do a 3-link. Unfortunately, I think that's beyond the scope of the people I have relatively easy access to. A link suspension is not child's play - this is ACTUALLY designing a suspension from the ground up. I'm 99.8% sure my design is solid. I'm 20% sure it'll fit under the vehicle. So, that's out. If I had a couple months to do the work myself, I'd do it, but I'm not going to get 80% done at a shop and have to start over. So its back to radius arms. There's nothing wrong with that - in fact, in your case they're perfect! They have benefits built in that eliminate things that would be required on a 3/4-link or even a-arms/IFS. And there are ways to 'tweak' them to perform a bit better. Danny runs modified radius arms on his Sport and that thing is scarier than mine. My thoughts on this go-around, since I'm back to radius arms, is to go with the Land Cruiser or Land Rover arms instead of the Ford arms. I'm going to stop at Slee this week and see if I can get some measurements. Given the availability of both the Ford and Toy stuff, this seems to be a better solution now and if I'm correct, the LC arms are actually a few inches longer which will increase travel by just a bit, too. Edward
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Post by bdmontero on Aug 2, 2016 20:41:22 GMT -5
Thanks man I really appreciate all this info. I have to have this done right. Especially if my family is in the car. Talked to the wife and she said I have a couple weeks to find a shop and if I can't to go ahead and order the ifs lift and roll with that for a year. I'm hoping I find one. :confused:
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Post by jkdv8 on Aug 3, 2016 21:05:31 GMT -5
Money talks. Or they think you're crazy or a prank caller Probably be best to stop by the shops and talk one on one with them. If you look at it from their viewpoint, The little bit they would make hardly compensates for the potential of multiple lawsuits should something bad happen. In some states it's also illegal to alter the frame in any shape or form. Most of it has to do with getting them to understand that you're SERIOUS and not some stupid kid harassing them and wasting their time. It took me 3 months to convince the shop here to do the big Sport and I still think they didn't really think I'd do it until I wrote them a check for most of the parts. And then there's the problems with what they'll make of the SAS vs. what they'd make off of three hundred oil changes. The shop that did the original SAS isn't interested in doing a second because for them its a money loosing deal. They can make more off a bunch of cookie cutter deals that don't tie up resources like oil changes and generic Jeep lift kit installations AND they can have cheaper, less skilled techs. And, no, 'money' does not talk. Even if you're willing to throw 1.5-2X the cost of the job at them so they don't loose money, they still don't have the technical labor pool necessary to do the job. Honest companies will understand this and turn away the business. That's kind of a problem with shops that I've been talking to my business partner with. The tech that did my SAS was very good. Professional trained welder and engineer. I've had numerous people that know what they're doing look at the big Sport and think it came from the factory that way. AND about a year or so after my SAS was done, he left and started a commercial building fabrication business. People who are REALLY good at what they do at advanced levels, are really hard to keep unless they're constantly doing stuff that keeps them challenged and compensated at their level. Being a grease monkey 90% of the time doesn't really do it for people like that. That has almost nothing to do with it. Even the states were this is the case, shops will do it under the guise of 'for off-road use only'. I thought I had a guy but he dropped of the planet. I spoke to a guy that was at the shop where the original SAS was done who referred me to another shop just down the street that allegedly was tickled pink at the opportunity. I've been too busy with the office move, a flaky employee, a tech with a broken foot :rolleyes:, stupid electric fan nonsense, and trying to get house stuff done before the snow flies here in another month or so. And trying to take a vacation. I'll give Jason a call and have him hook me back up with them this week. I'm ready to get the preliminary stuff started, so ... time to get off my butt. I'll let you know what I find out. Jason started just as they were finishing up the SAS in '02 and he's been around the truck and me for a long time. He knows pretty much what I'm looking for and need so I imagine the guys he wants me to talk to are pretty decent. I'm glad they're enthusiastic about doing it. That seems to be the hard part in this project. Ok. Here's where I am with the radius arms. I really, really, REALLY want to do a 3-link. Unfortunately, I think that's beyond the scope of the people I have relatively easy access to. A link suspension is not child's play - this is ACTUALLY designing a suspension from the ground up. I'm 99.8% sure my design is solid. I'm 20% sure it'll fit under the vehicle. So, that's out. If I had a couple months to do the work myself, I'd do it, but I'm not going to get 80% done at a shop and have to start over. So its back to radius arms. There's nothing wrong with that - in fact, in your case they're perfect! They have benefits built in that eliminate things that would be required on a 3/4-link or even a-arms/IFS. And there are ways to 'tweak' them to perform a bit better. Danny runs modified radius arms on his Sport and that thing is scarier than mine. My thoughts on this go-around, since I'm back to radius arms, is to go with the Land Cruiser or Land Rover arms instead of the Ford arms. I'm going to stop at Slee this week and see if I can get some measurements. Given the availability of both the Ford and Toy stuff, this seems to be a better solution now and if I'm correct, the LC arms are actually a few inches longer which will increase travel by just a bit, too. Edward Well, I don't know how they do things in Colorado but you would be hard pressed to find someone to do that type of work where I'm at. I will say that they would probably be more inclined to do extensive mods if, it were a Ford, Dodge, or Chevy. If it's a vehicle that it tagged and registered for on road use simply stating that's it's for off road use isn't going to release them of liability. Like in Georgia it's illegal to remove any factory installed component from the original frame much less welding additional parts on. Now if you were to actually tow the vehicle back an forth to the wheeling spot that's different. Most companies that do frame work on the multipurpose 'frame and cab' rigs that are used for tow trucks, garbage trucks, box trucks etc, are more often than not, required to have a special certification to weld on the frame. It's doubtful your typical shop tech is going to carry that type of certification. Also, if the frame is heat treated (although doubtful on these trucks) it even says on the frame not to take a torch to it. This is not to say that if you do this you'll be arrested or have the vehicle impounded (unless they do thorough inspections in that state and catch it) but rather if an accident occurs because of it or the resulting accident itself causes a separate incident it becomes quite a problem. People get hurt, lawyers get involve and it would turn ugly. By doing this you ultimately change very important characteristics of the vehicle that allowed it to be deemed road worthy to begin with. Now I'm not saying that yours isn't road worthy or the guy you had do yours is incompetent or under qualified but having joe shmoe down the street hack up and reweld the frame isn't going to appease the DOT, lawyers, or the insurance company. You can try to circumvent the regulations and justify it all you want but depending on the state it is illegal. It is what it is. This is of course worse case scenario but being that it's wheeled puts more stress on components and all its takes is a hairline crack unseen by the naked eye to cause a catastrophic failure.
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Post by bdmontero on Aug 3, 2016 21:15:02 GMT -5
I am in the process of getting an umbrella policy. Plus with my business you have no idea of the nightmares of sue happy money hungry people. Lawyers and "I slipped on the wet floor" type of people. Wait till your employee screws something up then you'll find out real quick who ends up paying. Lol
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Post by bdmontero on Aug 4, 2016 9:10:50 GMT -5
Does the 4.90 gears from a 2000-2004 sport 3.0 fit in my rear axle? I have 4.63 now. If I can get 4.90 to fit I'll do a spring over in the rear and buy a ARB locker for it.
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Post by pinstryper on Aug 4, 2016 16:37:46 GMT -5
yes
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Post by pinstryper on Aug 4, 2016 16:38:51 GMT -5
Just can't use the sway bar... Very well
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Post by ES_97Sport on Aug 4, 2016 17:10:24 GMT -5
Well, I don't know how they do things in Colorado but you would be hard pressed to find someone to do that type of work where I'm at. There isn't a state on the mainland where there are no shops that will do stuff like this. EVEN CA. 'Illegal' or not. Including Georgia. Which makes you wonder how the shops in these socialist states get away with installing completely new suspensions under Jeeps. And Toys. etc. Or Jeep. Because its cheap and easy. And because 'new' and 'different' is scary. This was already discussed. You are beating a dead horse. Edward
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Post by ES_97Sport on Aug 4, 2016 17:14:05 GMT -5
Uh, there was an axle change with the Gen 2, wasn't there? If I remember correctly there are two different ARBs. The old one that I had fit all of the Gen 1s, but there is a new one for the Gen 2. Edward
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Post by ES_97Sport on Aug 4, 2016 17:14:31 GMT -5
Ya I told them I have the cash just need to set a date. Every person I called on 5-6 people and no one returns my calls. Tired of it. Even with the tire carrier. sigh. Yea, that sucks. Talking to them on the phone probably won't do any good. My best luck with any fab work of any kind always comes from actually going down and talking to them. I'll get a hold of Jason and talk to the guys here and let you know how that goes. If you're willing to have it done here that may not be a bad idea. One thing that freaks everyone out is not having done it before. They're always afraid they'll run into something and end up screwed. Everyone I've talked to here was a little gun shy until I showed them big Sport and said just use this as a template. If they have a working model in front of them that they can take all the measurements off of they're a lot more enthusiastic. I am not a 'fan boy' of anything. My training is engineering and I run a corp. I was trained to use what works best and my 'job' requires that I run what works the best, not what I necessarily like. So, I'm going to give you a completely unbiased opinion. Run what works best for you. That's it. The End. Seriously, if a different vehicle would be easier - and it would for sure - and it'll serve the same function(s), then its silly to beat yourself to a pulp trying to reinvent the wheel. There is only one good, solid reason to build a Montero or Montero Sport and that is durability. That's it. There is no other reason. At all. The Land Cruiser already has solid axles, has locking differentials and you can get parts for it over the counter. The 4-Runner may or may not have solid axles depending on how far you go back, you can get locking differentials, and parts over the counter. And they sell KITS to do a SAS that turns the conversion into a weekend job. The Exploder is the same size as a Sport. The XTerra has more power. The Tacoma is more versatile when it comes to carrying a load. Old Land Rovers have solid axles and they come in different sizes. Old Chevy and Ford iron is easier to fix and ALSO comes with solid axles and several different sizes. There are 20zillion Jeeps of all kinds of sizes now, with solid axles, and accessories and zillions of accessories, and .... ... and I know I'm missing vehicles for sure. My point is, there are alternatives. Unfortunately - and I'm repeating what I've been told by shops of guys that know my vehicle - overall durability is not a strong point of most of the above when compared to the Montero or Montero Sport. For ME that is a key, no, more like the #1 point, not because of what I do with it, because ANY vehicle can be made dependable for at least a single use, but because I have no intentions of getting rid of any of my vehicles until I die. Yea, don't laugh, I just had a birthday. I have every intention of putting another 600,000 miles on my big black Sport and I have no plans for doing the major rebuild I just finished until I hit 1,000,000 miles or more. If you're only going to use it for vacations and put on maybe 15K a year, almost anything above properly maintained would probably suffice and would probably be a lot easier for you to manage. And, if I had to pick and could live with a littler larger vehicle than the Sport, I'd take a serious look at the late '90s Land Cruiser - something like a '97-98. That's what the tech at the dealership has. Well, actually he has four. Edward
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