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Post by ES_97Sport on Aug 5, 2016 19:33:43 GMT -5
Will do man. I haven't even thought of asking him about the np231! Good idea! Yep! Axles FR/RR - D44 HP/D44 or Ford 9" - 5.13 or 5.29:1 Steering Semi-high steer - 1 ton (1.5" dom) drag link & 3/4 ton (1.25" dom) tie-rod Hydraulic-assist (recommended) - box, pump, ram Suspension FR/RR - Coils/Leafs Track bar 1.25" dom Shocks FR/RR - travel limiting straps Drive train FR/RR - front & rear drive shafts Transmission output housing & shaft swap Crawl box (NWF) Transfer case (Terra ultra-short SYE) SGI speedo signal converter Frame Reinforcement of the engine bay frame rails Reinforce the welds on the four rear body mount brackets Weld-on rock skids (three or four leg) Those are the pieces. Edward
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Post by ES_97Sport on Feb 20, 2017 16:17:57 GMT -5
How much was their price on the SAS not including the axle? I do not have even a tiny, microscopic clue. I don't think they have much of an idea, either, at this point. I'm supplying 3/4 of the parts so that throws things off. To do yours, you would need axles, either RADesign's Rail II or Winters rock shifter (probably the former), and t-case and doubler (or 4-speed t-case). RADesigns - Rail II 1-4 Manual shift control of AW4I have some bad news on the t-case side that's going to (maybe) require some engineering changes. Tera no longer makes the Low231 kit (4:1) for the NP231. Northwest Fab (NWF) is the only one still making a doubler (2.72:1) for the NP231 t-case, but they still make it (I think). So the only option left with the 231 is to run the HD version with 2.72 and a doubler with 2.72. Effectively a 3-speed t-case (1:1, 2.72:1 and 7.4:1). 2.72 is good and 7.4 is good, but nothing in the middle sucks. The transmission shop here will do a HD NP231 for about $700-800, +$300 for the Tera Extreme Short Shaft SYE, +$1900 for the NWF doubler = about $3200-3500. I'm going to ask Mark, but I THINK they'll also build a NVG 241OR RockTrac (out of the early Rubicon) which is 4:1 from the factory. My guess is between $1000-1500 + whatever the output would be. Pushing $4000 total that route. 1:1, 2.72:1, 4:1 and 10.88:1. Lo and Lo-Lo are good, but Lo-Lo-Lo is insane for an automatic. But, it would be a true 4-speed setup. The plus side is the RockTrac is stronger than the 231 w/ the Low231 by a good bit. Bad part - getting really hard to get and expensive. The only practical option I see - both cost and gearing - is the Atlas 4-speed. There is zero point in going with a 2-speed t-case. The cost differential is too low considering the overall cost of the project and there are just WAY too many benefits to a 3 or 4-speed t-case. A configured (for us) Atlas 4-speed is about $3700. There are four gear ratio options for the 4-speed (see below) so you can tailor the t-case to what you actually wheel. If you were actually wheeling a Sport on 31-32"s with an A/T, the first option would be interesting. Moderate rock crawling, trail, snow, sand running with 33-35"s and an A/T or M/T - probably more than most would ever need even. Heavy crawling, 35-37" tires and A/T or M/T. Advance Adapters - Atlas 4 speed T/CAtlas 4-speed config (Mitsu, AW4 transmission)- 1.0:1 / 2.72:1 / 1.50:1 / 4.08:1 1.0:1 / 2.72:1 / 2.00:1 / 5.44:1 1.0:1 / 2.72:1 / 3.00:1 / 8.16:1 1.0:1 / 2.72:1 / 3.80:1 / 10.34:1
Left hand drop (DR) 23 spline short input Standard tailhousing w/speedo Electronic speedometer sender Front/Rear yoke 1310 CV Universal shifter Sight tube I'm rethinking this whole piece myself now. I have a complete NP231 with the (new) Extreme Short Shaft SYE and (new) Low231 in a completely rebuilt NP231 ready to drop in + a NWF BB that I've got about $4000 wrapped up in. I've never had issues out of this setup in the big '97 but this is dead end. If something goes haywire 2-3 years from now with the Low231, its rip everything out and start over with an Atlas. Anyway, this is changing the cost 'cause changing from the NP/doubler to an Atlas or Stak will probably main relocating a cross member. I have to do some serious measuring this week and figure out how much this changes things. Edward
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Post by ES_97Sport on Feb 20, 2017 19:25:10 GMT -5
Transfer case lengths:
1) Atlas 4-speed (standard tailhousing w/speedo) - 18.75"
2) NP231J (2.72:1) - 20.5" *
3) NP231J (Tera Extreme Short Shaft Kit SYE, 2.72:1) - 13.3"
4) 241OR RockTrac (4:1) - 15.25" *
5) NWF BlackBox (doubler, 2.72:1) - 8.125"
6) Atlas 2-speed (standard tailhousing w/speedo) - 13.8"
(*) These are OEM transfer case lengths. No aftermarket SYE, etc.
Transfer case or t-case & doubler: ***
(in order of total or combined length / shortest to longest)
1) NP231J HD (Tera Extreme Short Shaft Kit SYE):
1:1 / 2.72:1
Length: 13.3"
Cost: apx $1000-1300, $800-1000 NP231J HD, $200-300 Tera SYE
2) Atlas 2-speed:
1.0:1 / 1.5:1 1.0:1 / 2.0:1 1.0:1 / 3.0:1 1.0:1 / 3.8:1 1.0:1 / 4.3:1 1.0:1 / 5.0:1
Length: 13.8"
Cost: apx $2900
3) Atlas 4-speed:
1.0:1 / 2.72:1 / 1.50:1 / 4.08:1 1.0:1 / 2.72:1 / 2.00:1 / 5.44:1 1.0:1 / 2.72:1 / 3.00:1 / 8.16:1 1.0:1 / 2.72:1 / 3.80:1 / 10.34:1
Length: 18.75" **
Cost: apx $3700
4) NP231J HD (Tera Extreme Short Shaft Kit SYE) & NWF BlackBox:
1:1 / 2.72:1 / 2.72:1 / 7.4:1
Length: 13.3" + 8.125" = 21.4375"
Cost: apx $2500-2800, $800-1000 NP231J HD, $200-300 Tera SYE, NWF BlackBox $1500
5) 241OR RockTrac & NWF BlackBox:
1:1 / 2.72:1 / 4:1 / 10.88:1
Length: 15.25" + 8.125" = 23.375"
Cost: apx $2700-3000, $1000-1500 241OR RockTrac, NWF BlackBox $1500
6) NP231J HD & NWF BlackBox:
1:1 / 2.72:1 / 2.72:1 / 7.4:1
Length: 20.5" + 8.125" = 28.625"
Cost: apx $2300-2500, $800-1000 NP231J HD, NWF BlackBox $1500
(**) Length is measured from the front face to the center line of the rear output yoke.
(***) Dakota Digital SG-5 is required for all t-cases, combinations for speedo functionality @ apx $250.
Notes:
Gear ratios:
The Mitsubishi OEM t-case is a 2-speed transfer case with ratios of 1:1 and 1.9:1. This is "tolerable" for tires up to apx 32". "Tolerable" depends on vehicle weight, altitude, M/T vs A/T and the type of terrain in 4WD. With an ARB bull bar, skids, winch, roof rack, recovery gear, a Jerry can of fuel, 5 gal of water, one passenger and a few days worth of camping gear, A/T @ 7000ft and relatively mild rock crawling, 33" tires are the ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM (and will cause accelerated transmission wear and overheating). In truth, 32"s are a bit much.
2.72:1 is a significant improvement over 1.9:1. 2.72-3:1 is a good choice for lite-very moderate wheeling and very lite rock crawling. With an ARB bull bar, skids, winch, roof rack, recovery gear, a Jerry can of fuel, 5 gal of water, one passenger and a few days worth of camping gear, A/T @ 7000ft and relatively mild rock crawling, this ratio will work fine through 33" tires. This ratio is a bit tall for the M/T, but is an excellent general purpose ratio (fire roads, forest service roads, sand and snow) in a 3 or 4-speed transfer case.
4:1 is a significant reduction over the previous ratios. Moderate-heavy wheeling to lite-moderate technical rock crawling. With an ARB bull bar, skids, winch, roof rack, recovery gear, a couple Jerry cans of fuel, 10-20 gal of water, a couple passengers and a weeks worth of camping gear, A/T @ 7000ft and lite-moderate technical rock crawling, this ratio will work well with 33-37" tires. This ratio is a bit too low for fire & forest service roads, sand and snow. This is an excellent 2nd ratio in a 3-4 speed transfer case for both the A/T and M/T.
5.0-10.88:1 ratios are in a class of their own. Heavy wheeling to moderate-extreme technical rock crawling. These are "specialty" ratios for very to extremely low crawl speeds and 35"+ tires and are used to negotiate individual obstacles, not entire trails. Ratios exceeding 8:1 are generally not recommended in automatic transmissions due to possible braking issues, but are very usable in M/T vehicles. These ratios give the ultimate in control off road and are very useful in controlling a top heavy vehicle by drastically reducing speed. The torque produced by the gear reduction of these ratios eclipses the realms of commercial diesel equipment. Special consideration must be given to the 'down stream' drive train strength. 10.88:1 is (way) more than adequate to move a 7000lb M/T vehicle on 35-37"s up a 60 degree incline with no throttle whatsoever (@ apx 7" per second!). These are the ratios you will never need, until you really need them and then wonder how you ever lived without them.
2-speed, 3-speed and 4-speed transfer cases:
2-speed - 1:1 and whatever:1; this is the OEM t-case design. There are two reasons for a 2-speed t-case: serious cash crunch or you wheel the exact same terrain with your vehicle configured the exact same way 99% of the time. Lots of people fall into both categories and that's ok. Note, if you fall into the first category, it will cost you more than twice as much to change to a 3-speed or 4-speed transfer case as installing one in the first place. Second category people, pick the ratio that will cover 99% of situations, and better just a tad too tall than WAY too low.
3-speed and 4-speed - 1:1 and either two (2) or three (3) reduction ratios. Maximum versatility is what these setups are about - the ability to select the perfect ratio for the situation. This may seem like overkill to the inexperienced - much like the extreme low ratios mentioned above - but if you wheel anything more difficult than your local dirt fire roads, once you drive a three or four speed t-case, you will NEVER go back to a 2-speed case. In the long run it will save wear and tear on your vehicle, make the vehicle much easier to drive over more difficult terrain and make wheeling safer overall.
Lengths:
There are several things to consider in the length of the transfer case assembly.
1) Maximum length of the complete assembly that will fit in the vehicle
2) Minimum length of the transfer case assembly
3) Drive shaft angles, lengths and clearance
Assuming no modifications to the tunnel and/or removal and/or relocation of the rear cross member, there is an absolute maximum length of the total assembly of about 22-23" for the M/T and 26-27" for the A/T. At this point the assembly is too long to install.
There is also a practical minimum length as well. If the transfer case assembly is too short, the rear cross member will need to be clearanced or removed and relocated to allow adequate clearance between the drive shaft and cross member when the axle is at full droop. In this case, moving the rear output TOWARDS the rear axle (shorter drive shaft) is actually a good thing. A very short transfer case assembly moves the front output TOWARDS the front axle - in this case a BAD thing - which can result in a front drive shaft that is too short to take advantage of (or all of) the articulation that may be present in the front suspension. A very short front drive shaft can also result in extreme pinion angle and/or require the use of a high pinion front axle to help alleviate pinion angle.
The rear drive shaft is already plenty long. In fact its plenty long if it only runs from the rear cross member to the rear axle. The Spicer 1310 CV handles the angles there fine. Unlike other vehicles, the need to lengthen the rear drive shaft doesn't exist here.
The front drive shaft, on the other hand, is extremely short even in OEM stock form. The front drive shaft will be converted to a CV (Spicer), slip drive shaft, which uses up precious length resulting in a front drive shaft that is about 18" long and necessitates the use of a HP front axle like the Danna 44 High Pinion and limiting straps to prevent the use of the total articulation most likely present in the front suspension. Extending (lengthening) the front drive shaft even 8-10 inches can make a huge difference in the performance, durability of the vehicle and cut costs significantly.
So there are very definite - very important - benefits when choosing a transfer case assembly to considering the length and locations of the front and rear outputs.
Transmission Dimensions:
AW3 -
Bell housing: 6.5" Tail housing: 3.5" Transmission: 16" Total: 26"
V5MT1 - ****
Bell housing: 7" Tail housing: 5" Transmission: 11.5" Total: 23.5" (****) Additional length of a transmission to transfer case adapter must also be calculated into the total length. Adapter length: 6.5"
Clearance:
The Atlas 4-speed and NV 241OR RockTrac will not clear the OEM tunnel. Options are cutting big hole(s) in the tunnel and installing new sheet metal, or a 2" or possibly 1" body lift.
The NP231 HD with NWF BlackBox will clear the OEM tunnel with maybe some VERY minor dimpling of the tunnel and/or slightly inclining the engine/transmission/t-case back to lower the t-case assembly. A 1" or 2" body lift will completely eliminate any clearance issues.
Edward
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